My brunch with Stanley.....

[fasstrack]

I DO NOT want to start another Stanley Crouch firestorm---which seems to happen every time his name is uttered, especially on the Intraweb, where anonymity (sp?) comes cheap. I DO want to say that I reached out to Mr. Crouch when he was being hammered on that infamous thread here. I hadn't been his biggest fan, let's say. From the first Stanley was a first class gentleman.

After corresponding for a while and a few phone calls I invited Stanley to my Sunday brunch gig (with singer Deanna Kirk and Tim Givens on bass---Cuchina de Peche 1-4 E. 4th west of 2nd). Not only did he show, he stayed the entire gig and we talked for like 2 1/2 hours afterward.

Stanley revealed himself to have a tremendous intellect (I always knew that part)supported by great scholarship, real compassion, to be funny as hell, and a good listener too. When you hear his opinions from him---from the source---you're getting what he's thought long and hard about and he will support it with facts and/or the observations of people who were there. I'm glad now that Stanley pisses people off, even when he does me. It means he's challenging their assumptions and it's intellectual cowardice to be afraid of that IMO

In the time we spent together I, an unkown musician to most of the public, felt no condescending whiff, in fact felt and got nothing but respect for me and whatever I might have done in music. In other words, he is if nothing else a man who knows the deal, how hard this stuff is.

Finally, I want to mention something that's always refreshing in this day and age of short-shrifting of anything resembling elegance: his manners. Exemplary. An old-school gentleman who got up every time someone approached his table and addressed women in the house the way they deserved.

Please don't turn this into another drawn out drama. I just wanted to give my impression and to say it was nice having you, Stanley.

[jazzy mary]

Your experience doesn't surprise me, fass. I've had lots of lively, interesting conversations w/ Stanley at various clubs.

He is really smart and I really like his writing. His column in the "Daily News" is the only good thing in there.

[Lois Gilbert]

Joel, I'm so pleased you had this opportunity. Often, one has preconceived notions based on public persona, what is reported, what is rumored. I'm glad you're getting the opportunity to know Stanley a bit better. He's very special, and I'm proud and honored that we are friends.

Peace and blessings
Lois

[John P. Cooper]

Was in comped in? Who paid for lunch? Open bar?

[Lilsis]

While everyone may not have this opportunity for a "one-on-one" with Mr. Crouch, it is refreshing to hear the positive statements about him instead of the vitriolic rants from a previous thread. He knows the music, the history of the music and works at keeping it alive and kicking. He holds jazz and the musicians who play it in high esteem and respects those who have "fought in the trenches" to keep the music playing. And yes... he's a darn good writer.

Keep the Music Playing

[fasstrack]

Originally Posted by Lois Gilbert

Joel, I'm so pleased you had this opportunity. Often, one has preconceived notions based on public persona, what is reported, what is rumored. I'm glad you're getting the opportunity to know Stanley a bit better. He's very special, and I'm proud and honored that we are friends.

Peace and blessings
Lois

In my case I had pre-conceived notions based on my own prejudices and other issues and really had both thought and said some bad things about Stanley---which I was very up front about. Maybe I'll never love everything about him, but so what? Anyway, we both came out smelling like a rose. Yeah, he has quite a mind and energy.

[Lilsis]

Originally Posted by fasstrack

Yeah, he has quite a mind and energy.

Indeed!!!


Keep the Music Playing

[GoodSpeak]

What a refreshing thread...thanks Fass

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by fasstrack

Finally, I want to mention something that's always refreshing in this day and age of short-shrifting of anything resembling elegance: his manners.

I guess Matthew Shipp and Dave Douglas would have a different viewpoint about Crouch's "manners," but I suppose they don't count for much in the eyes of Crouch's sycophants. More power to you all.

****

NOTE:

Hopefully this thread stays where it is. Still, I'm deleting all of my posts subsequent to this one. Not because I've changed my way of thinking, but simply because Damen steered the discussion away from the topic at hand and I followed, thus aiding in the degeneration of the thread. I'll never fathom the reasons for his combative approach whenever anything related to WM is at play, but I should have refused to participate, and in deleting my comments I hereby repudiate my dialogue with him, and any such approach to discussion in future threads.

What's truly appalling is that were any other critic (especially a white one) to behave as Crouch has, he/she would be roundly decried. But Crouch gets away with it. He seems to be a hero of sorts to those who can't tell great writing from mediocre writing, or a true critic from a polemicist with an agenda. Crouch decries the vulgarity and violence of rap, but doesn't seem to apply the same standard to his own behavior. And yet I'm called "mean-spirited" and "unfair" for daring to mention it. Well, I'll always consider him second rate, despite the fact that most on this board don't have a problem with a man who throws a punch instead of a sound idea. (Thanks to Rollhead for jumping in to back me up.)

[Rob Damen]

Originally Posted by Paul B

I guess Matthew Shipp and Dave Douglas would have a different viewpoint about Crouch's "manners," but I suppose they don't count for much in the eyes of Crouch's sycophants. More power to you all.

Cheers,

Rob

[Rob Damen]

Originally Posted by Paul B

Thanks. That could well be an image of Crouch voicing his distaste at anything non-Wyntonian (the child would need a fatter head, though)...But really, it's amazing the lengths you people will go to support the man (Crouch that is), but not surprising for those with unadventurous musical taste and no intellectual standards.



Bye-ya

Cheers,

Rob

[Jazzooo]

Wow, that's really mean spirited stuff, Paul.

[JamesH]

What's the old saying? A pictures worth a thousand words. Quite.

Originally Posted by Rob Damen

Cheers,

Rob

[Rob Damen]

Originally Posted by JamesH

What's the old saying? A pictures worth a thousand words. Quite.

And with a bib and some applesauce hanging off the lip ...

Cheers,

Rob

[fasstrack]

Originally Posted by Paul B

I guess Matthew Shipp and Dave Douglas would have a different viewpoint about Crouch's "manners," but I suppose they don't count for much in the eyes of Crouch's sycophants. More power to you all.

Listen, man: first of all it was inevitable that this would go this way although I asked you all to refrain. Second, I was death on Stanley for years until we met on that other thread. Third, I gave the guy a chance to show me what he was about and I dug him. The way he's treated other people, or was alleged to have, has nothing to do with me. I only reported what went down and we had a great time. Stanley's a big boy and if he treated those guys jive I guess he'll answer for it, or should anyway.

I don't know who you're talking about as a sychophant or apologist but if you read back in that thread I was hammering Stanley as hard as anyone and never backed down, (he knows I talked shit about him privately b/c I told him---and he didn't flinch and took it like a man, so neither of us are phonies) but under my real name, not some bullshit pseudonym.The way we even ended up getting together was that I felt I had gone too far and, concerned that I hurt his feelings,sent a note of clarification. The man is human after all, isn't he? Does he not deserve courtesy even in a heated debate?He was gracious from the beginning and has been so ever since. He was the one that suggested we get together, not me. I'm glad we did, and if anyone doesn't like it, tough noogies. This doesn't make SC an angel or absolve him from previous trangressions, real or imagined---or my own issues with him. But anyone that treats me respectfully, I'm gonna do the same, end of story. What I said I meant. We had a marvelous time, he's a hell of a guy,and I'm glad he came.

I've sort of resolved to skip out of Web debates. If you guys wanna kill each other, go ahead. Paul, write me a PM if you want. I'd be happy to talk about this or anything else.

Later,

Joel

[John P. Cooper]

Originally Posted by fasstrack

But anyone that treats me respectfully, I'm gonna do the same, end of story.
Joel

OK....line up the names...

Hitler
Pol Pot
Satan
Stalin
Bumbooga
The Borge

[GoodSpeak]

Paul,

With all due respect....have you ever met and talked with Wynton Marsalis?

As an example: I don't much care for George the II's politics, but I am certain he is a nice man in person.

Aren't you being just a tad unfair here?

[Mike Schwartz]

Paul's never a tad unfair when it comes to blasting people. He goes at it full tilt!

[Ron Thorne]

I'm at a complete loss as to how anyone could actually "read" posts #1, #6 & #16 and not have a favorable impression, irrespective of anything in the past.

Amazing.

Sad.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by GoodSpeak

As an example: I don't much care for George the II's politics, but I am certain he is a nice man in person.

Such certainty must be comforting.

[Chris D]

Originally Posted by Paul B

Thanks. That could well be an image of Crouch voicing his distaste at anything non-Wyntonian (the child would need a fatter head, though)...But really, it's amazing the lengths you people will go to support the man (Crouch that is), but not surprising for those with unadventurous musical taste and no intellectual standards.



Bye-ya

Could you be a bigger ass?

[fasstrack]

What a waste of my time this was.

[Noj]

Maybe for some, Fass, but I found your impression of Stanley insightful. It supports what Lois has said about the man.

[Peterdubya]

Fass, I found it interesting too, and was happy to read it.

You have to remember that PaulB has some serious problems involving a bonk on the head, a bitter taste in his mouth, and that constant ringing in his ears.... he blames Stanley Crouch for all this and more.... so what can you do.

[Clay Fink]

I'm sure a lot of people who are know for doing and/or writing things that some consider vicious, ugly or unkind may be very charming in certain situations. So I guess people can be both assholes and whatever the opposite of an asshole is. I'm not sure that that's even important; the negative tends to outweigh the positive in my experience. I'll reserve judgement as to whether Herr Crouch is an exception to this.

[Rob C]

Originally Posted by Clay Fink

I'm sure a lot of people who are know for doing and/or writing things that some consider vicious, ugly or unkind may be very charming in certain situations. So I guess people can be both assholes and whatever the opposite of an asshole is. I'm not sure that that's even important; the negative tends to outweigh the positive in my experience. I'll reserve judgement as to whether Herr Crouch is an exception to this.

I have to say, I'm not clear on why a writer's table manners are supposed to have any bearing on what his readers think about him, positive or negative.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by Clay Fink

I'm sure a lot of people who are know for doing and/or writing things that some consider vicious, ugly or unkind may be very charming in certain situations. So I guess people can be both assholes and whatever the opposite of an asshole is. I'm not sure that that's even important; the negative tends to outweigh the positive in my experience. I'll reserve judgement as to whether Herr Crouch is an exception to this.

I'm interested about your opinion of why Stanley is such an asshole.

I won't respond because I don't want another 2,000 post thread. I'm just interested in specific facts as you see them.

[Clay Fink]

Originally Posted by Rob C

I have to say, I'm not clear on why a writer's table manners are supposed to have any bearing on what his readers think about him, positive or negative.

I think when you're talking about public figures, their public words and actions trump any personal characteristics. At least for me. Especially if I don't care for their words and actions. If I like someone, though, I'm willing to forgive anything up to and including beastiality.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by Paul B

Could Stanley? Ever read his screed against fellow critic Francis Davis? Guess not. Crouch rants in a mean-spirited (and often racist) manner and it's all good (of course, when the ladies are around his table manners are nice and suave, so maybe that justifies it all). But someone else expresses a strong opinion and he's an dubbed an "ass." Hmmmm.

Well, at least I haven't punched a musician lately. I'll let you return to your feeble-minded enabling.

Bye-ya

So Stanley punches a guy and says bad things about Francis Davis. So what?

The "racist" comment is intriguing. How was he racist? Can I have details? Or is it just your personal opinion supported by nothing.

[Clay Fink]

Originally Posted by JamesH

I'm interested about your opinion of why Stanley is such an asshole.

I won't respond because I don't want another 2,000 post thread. I'm just interested in specific facts as you see them.

I'm not sure I said he was. But based on the few things I've read by him I think that "asshole" might be an accurate term. Though that's not to say that I haven't agreed with him at times. He's very good at pushing people's buttons which isn't always bad thing. From what I can tell, however, he seems to be part of a contrarian tradition that employs certain styles of argument. I'd lump him with Hitchins, Paglia, Sullivan and maybe some others who don't come to mind right now. The short version is that they frequently use some variety of a "strawman" argument to defeat one or another sort of liberal or "progressive" piety. This gets them attention and book deals. Being from an traditionally oppressed or marginal group lends them authenticity and is what really gives them the status they need to be heard. Nobody would care about Hitchins if he wasn't a former leftist, Paglia a women and lesbian or Sullivan a gay catholic. Ditto with Stanley being black. All of these folks are good at placing themselves somewhere in the middle of a debate and manage to successfully appear to be above the fray while they toss bombs (mostly) to the left.

I could be wrong. In either case, when I get the time I will "back it up".