Yess!!! Great Day for America with Webb winning!

Dennis Gonzalez · November-8th-2006, 09:04 PM

WASHINGTON - Democrats wrested control of the Senate from Republicans Wednesday with an upset victory in Virginia, giving the party complete domination of Capitol Hill for the first time since 1994, as NBC News projected Democrat Jim Webb as the winner.

patricia · November-8th-2006, 09:34 PM

Not to be ungracious, but Take that, Macaca!!

Sandi22 · November-8th-2006, 09:44 PM

Breaking News from ABCNEWS.com:

AP: DEMOCRATS TAKE THE SENATE, AFTER VICTORY IN VIRGINIA SENATE RACE. THE REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE HAS NOT CONCEDED

http://abcnews.go.com?CMP=EMC-1396

Dennis Gonzalez · November-8th-2006, 10:04 PM

Fixed:

AP: DEMOCRATS TAKE THE SENATE, AFTER VICTORY IN VIRGINIA SENATE RACE. THE REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE IS CONCEITED

Sandi22 · November-8th-2006, 10:08 PM

Now lets bar the Capital Doors, and disconnect the lobbyists telephones and computers and keep the place honest.

Wish it were that simple, but surely after the past few years, politicians will see just what a mess we're in and work for change, the right kind of change, nothing which folds or jingles.

Ron Thorne · November-8th-2006, 10:08 PM

It's a great day for America, indeed, Dennis!

There's a ton of work to be done, both here and abroad, and I sincerely hope that each of the winners is up to the task.

GoodSpeak · November-8th-2006, 10:26 PM

Now hold on there boyz....we still have a good ol'boy republican't in the White House.

Sad, but true.

Dr Dave · November-8th-2006, 10:59 PM

Let's not get ahead of ourselves, here. There is a huge mess to clean up, and cleaning up huge messes makes nobody happy.

1. There are no good options in Iraq. Whatever happens next will be ugly, and blaming it all on Bush will not make it any more palatable. Either we're going to have to send in a whole lot more troops, or else we're going to have to leave.

2. We are going to have to raise taxes. The previous regime leaves us no other choice, unless we consider default on international obligations a choice. On the other hand, there is no need to apologize for this. The fabulously wealthy got tax breaks. You don't like it? Shoulda voted for the other guy in '00 and '04.

3. Giving Medicare authority to dicker for lower prices on drugs is good, but it is hardly enough. We are going to have to have a national health benefit. Anybody who screams "socialized medicine" can go into the back room for a timeout. The Magic of the Market has not worked in health care.

4. We are going to have to fix our immigration laws, and Dems are going to have to stand up to all those xenophobes hollering "No amnesty" and tell them to shut the hell up.

5. Impeaching Bush is not on. Thank you, Nancy Pelosi, for saying as much as early as you did. By all means, hold investigative hearings on the awarding of no-bid contracts to US firms for services in Iraq, but that's plenty. It will be sufficiently satisfying to see Cheney resign for health reasons around the time such hearings begin.

In short, Dems are going to have to stop posturing and actually do something, and they are going to have to tell various hysterical interest groups of both right and left to grow up or shut up. Politicians of any stripe are loathe to offend, but this is no time for pandering to the base. America has a lot of shit to clean up, from domestic corruption to the long term project of restoring our standing in the international community.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not sure I would have been able to remain a US citizen if the Republicans had carried the day. I'm very, very relieved at the outcome, and proud of my fellow citizens for finally realizing they've been fed on a diet of shit sandwiches for six years now. But there's no getting around it: Omelets must be made, and eggs must be broken.

Al in NYC · November-9th-2006, 12:01 AM

Getting that total moron George Allen out of office is certainly a pretty damn good day for somebody though. The big shock is that so many folks in Virgina voted for him despite his painfully obvious combination of ignorance and arrogance. Did some Republicans really seriously think that this guy had a shot as a presidential candidate?

Scott Dolan · November-9th-2006, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennis Gonzalez

Fixed:

AP: DEMOCRATS TAKE THE SENATE, AFTER VICTORY IN VIRGINIA SENATE RACE. THE REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE IS CONCEITED

No revelation there.

Scott Dolan · November-9th-2006, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sandi22

Now lets bar the Capital Doors, and disconnect the lobbyists telephones and computers and keep the place honest.

Nah.

I want to see if the Democrats handle the temptations of the lobbyists any better than the Republicans did.

That will be a true test of their superiority.

Scott Dolan · November-9th-2006, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Finch

1. There are no good options in Iraq. Whatever happens next will be ugly, and blaming it all on Bush will not make it any more palatable. Either we're going to have to send in a whole lot more troops, or else we're going to have to leave.

There is still the possibility of diplomacy, no?

I'm pretty sure that the ISG will table this option. Ugly as it may seem, getting Iran and Syria involved will likely be key. I'm suspecting that most of you don't have much respect for Mr. Baker, but I think he will be the only one who can reasonably get us out of this mess.

IMO, I think we'll have to bring Iran and Syria to the table for the Shia, and Saudi Arabia and Egypt for the Sunni. That may be the only halfway reasonable way out at this point.

Quote:

2. We are going to have to raise taxes. The previous regime leaves us no other choice, unless we consider default on international obligations a choice. On the other hand, there is no need to apologize for this. The fabulously wealthy got tax breaks. You don't like it? Shoulda voted for the other guy in '00 and '04.

It was either Rahm E or Dean (perhaps both) who went out of their way to state that they would lower middle class taxes while raising them on the wealthy. We'll see.....

Quote:

3. Giving Medicare authority to dicker for lower prices on drugs is good, but it is hardly enough. We are going to have to have a national health benefit. Anybody who screams "socialized medicine" can go into the back room for a timeout. The Magic of the Market has not worked in health care.

Maybe not, but do you think Romney's model could work for the entire country?

Quote:

4. We are going to have to fix our immigration laws, and Dems are going to have to stand up to all those xenophobes hollering "No amnesty" and tell them to shut the hell up.

Agreed.

We're far too deep into this.

Quote:

5. Impeaching Bush is not on. Thank you, Nancy Pelosi, for saying as much as early as you did. By all means, hold investigative hearings on the awarding of no-bid contracts to US firms for services in Iraq, but that's plenty. It will be sufficiently satisfying to see Cheney resign for health reasons around the time such hearings begin.

Agreed 75%!!

I don't see Cheney stepping aside. Whatever the reason.

Quote:

In short, Dems are going to have to stop posturing and actually do something, and they are going to have to tell various hysterical interest groups of both right and left to grow up or shut up.

Ah, now we agree 100%.

Quote:

Don't get me wrong: I'm not sure I would have been able to remain a US citizen if the Republicans had carried the day.

Give me a fucking break.

But because you were so reasonable up until this last point, I'm going to give you a passing grade.

Sandi22 · November-9th-2006, 02:06 AM

People tried to leave in droves after the last the 2004 election. It was amazing how many applied for passports and visa's.

I can't help but wonder what the Neo Con reaction to yesterdays turn around will be? Surely there will be one. Perhaps they'll just tuck their tails and make themselves scarce? Hardly seems likely. They must have some sort of a back up plan in place, or do they?

John P. Cooper · November-9th-2006, 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sandi22

People tried to leave in droves after the last the 2004 election. It was amazing how many applied for passports and visa's.

Really? How many? Stats? Sources? Why did they change their minds?

Gary Sisco · November-9th-2006, 08:08 AM

The neos will write for years about who was responsible and it won't be them or anything they thought, wrote, advised, or did. That's a loon brigade On A Mission if ever there was one. Happily they'll be packing their asses back to think tank world where they can write for each other. Again.

There's nuff to be done as Dr Dave says way above, but the important thing to me is that one-party rule is over with (for now) and divided government is back, which requires give and take or ends in gridlock. Gridlock, I'm not so concerned about. One of the things I kind of liked about Ford's reign (ignoring the pardon of Nixon and the complete fuck up known as the Mayaguez Incident, in which the Marines invaded the wrong island....) is that nothing much happened. Nothing much happening in Washington from my perspecitive is often a lot better than whatever does happen.

I'm content to see that the people had finally had enough.

The recriminations and such in neocon and repub world will give me some entertainment if not much comfort, considering the bloodshed. Night of The Long Knives, coming up. Hut!

And I am, as always, thankful that the people, however slowly they move sometimes, are still sovereign here and can fire the lot when they have the desire.

Dr Dave · November-9th-2006, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

Nah.

I want to see if the Democrats handle the temptations of the lobbyists any better than the Republicans did.

That will be a true test of their superiority.

Absolutely, and I left it out of the to-do list: Ethics reform, in every sense. I actually have some hope that the Dems will be more honest, at least for a while, because they belong to a party that actually believes that government should govern.

That said, when the first scandal arises, as it inevitably will, there better not be any thing other than a Draconian response. I don't know about you, but I've had a goddam bellyful of influence-peddling, earmarking, and vote-selling.

The other sense of ethics reform has to do with cleaning out Guantanamo, shutting down the secret prisons, stopping "rendition" and getting the NSA out of the business of eavesdropping on US citizens.

Dr Dave · November-9th-2006, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John P. Cooper

Really? How many? Stats? Sources? Why did they change their minds?

That's actually true. I can't cite figures, but I met New Zealand's American emigration marketing person (yes, there is one) in Auckland in March, and she said applications from US citizens looking to live and work in New Zealand had skyrocketed after '04. Further, many of them did act on their inquiries. I'm sure it's on the web somewhere--there are many more Americans living in New Zealand than there were before the '04 election.

Gary Sisco · November-9th-2006, 09:06 AM

The bourgeois is becoming globalized along with the economy and nothing else could be expected.

In future, and not far, the class as a whole will be cosmopolitan. Ex-pats will be as common as sand.

It's at the other end that immigration or emigration is perceived as an "issue," typically.

In a free market, not only capital and its directors and products would move freely across borders. So, too, would labor. Until then, it's absurd to talk about one.

lynn · November-9th-2006, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Dave

That's actually true. I can't cite figures, but I met New Zealand's American emigration marketing person (yes, there is one) in Auckland in March, and she said applications from US citizens looking to live and work in New Zealand had skyrocketed after '04. Further, many of them did act on their inquiries. I'm sure it's on the web somewhere--there are many more Americans living in New Zealand than there were before the '04 election.

I hope we see some of those people return, but I doubt it. I actually got my passport a couple months ago just in case. Not sure I would have acted on the impulse to flee but I wanted the option.

Regarding the question of who voted for Allen, exit polls showed that it was men more than women (who voted for Webb) and they directly tied it to his being the son of Coach Allen. I guess you could call it the Sports Bar vote.

Gary Sisco · November-9th-2006, 09:13 AM

Splitting isn't changing anything.

I was offered Nicaraguan citizenship in '84 and declined. I'm not a Nica. I'm a gringo and political responsibility for it takes place here.

Splitting is a political irresponsibility. It does nothing to change things here and does nothing to change the effects of no change here on other people in other lands, particularly those at American gunpoint. (And there have been some of those for every second of my half-century-plus.)

Most of the emigration is related to the globalization of class, anyway.

groover · November-9th-2006, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Dave

1. There are no good options in Iraq. Whatever happens next will be ugly, and blaming it all on Bush will not make it any more palatable. Either we're going to have to send in a whole lot more troops, or else we're going to have to leave.

Partitioning into 3 states is still the best option, with a central body to share oil revenues. There should be a national referendum in Iraq on this. I have a feeling it's the only thing the Sunnis, Shiites, and Kurds will agree on.

claude · November-9th-2006, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by groover

Partitioning into 3 states is still the best option, with a central body to share oil revenues. There should be a national referendum in Iraq on this. I have a feeling it's the only thing the Sunnis, Shiites, and Kurds will agree on.

I agree groover, if the US wants to get out of Iraq and not leave a huge civil war they are either going to have to install a new dictator (any takers??) or accept reality and partition the country.

Scott Dolan · November-9th-2006, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by groover

Partitioning into 3 states is still the best option, with a central body to share oil revenues. There should be a national referendum in Iraq on this. I have a feeling it's the only thing the Sunnis, Shiites, and Kurds will agree on.

The Sunni's simply will never go for it. Period.

On a related note, looks like Turkey may pull their application to the EU. That ought to have the Kurds sweatin a little bit more.

groover · November-9th-2006, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

The Sunni's simply will never go for it. Period.

On a related note, looks like Turkey may pull their application to the EU. That ought to have the Kurds sweatin a little bit more.

Those Sunnis are the real troublemakers, aren't they?

Turkey pulling their application also removes a bargaining chip that could be used to get them to accept an independent Kurdish state on their border, though it's a mixed blessing for Europe. If Turkey joins the EU, it will be more difficult for Europe to avoid being further swamped with Muslim immigrants.

Gary Sisco · November-9th-2006, 11:09 AM

There is already a huge civil war, with dead in six figures, for christ sake (this time -- it comes on top of previously dead six figures going back to Poppy's reign, and millions before that in the Iraq-Iran war).

Dividing into ethnic zones is literally a flight from civilization and a return to tribalism.

Americans should by now show a little humility and allow the Iraqis to decide among themselves what needs to be done. There's going to be major bloodshed, no matter what. You can't just demolish a standing order and expect that another will emerge without serious fighting, particularly in a placed like Iraq, where the huge majority of the population was held down tightly by a minority dictatorship for decades. There's hash to settle and settled it will get, no matter what the US or any Americans think or say.

Eventually, another order will emerge but it's not going to be one that pleases many if any Americans, and certainly none in power. It will be a Shi'a order. What form it will take, only time will tell. But they are the large majority and they will have their day, come what may.

Ironically, the US's war will create what the Reagan admin so greatly feared as to arm and support Hussein: A Shi'a state bordering a Shi'a state whose eastern border butts up against western Aghanistan, which is largely Shi'a.

Good work, gentlemen. You've accomplished what you set out to destroy.

Nitwits.

groover · November-9th-2006, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary Sisco

Dividing into ethnic zones is literally a flight from civilization and a return to tribalism.

Americans should by now show a little humility and allow the Iraqis to decide among themselves what needs to be done.

Suppose dividing into ethnic zones is what they want? Are you going to force civilization on them? Hasn't worked too well so far.

Gary Sisco · November-9th-2006, 11:16 AM

I wouldn't impose anything on them. And I wouldn't have tried.

But by now Americans ought to be able to see that their war has been a mindboggling military and human disaster. The blame lies with the Bush admin and its collaborators alone, and it's plain as day that the US has completely fucked up, and once again produced rivers of blood for its self-imposed political ignorance about the rest of the planet, in yet another attempt to control what other people should do because it thinks its so fucking smart and god-given blessing to the rest of the world.

It's not and the proof is all around.

What the Iraqis eventually work out will be what they eventually work out. Nothing American is going to change that. Nothing at all.

For one thing, it simply hasn't the power. This too is clear to all concerned. If this war has done nothing else (Afghanistan, ditto), it has very clearly revealed the limits of American military and political power on the global stage.

Scott Dolan · November-9th-2006, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary

Americans should by now show a little humility and allow the Iraqis to decide among themselves what needs to be done.

Oh, they are. And there's absolutely nothing we can do about it.

groover · November-9th-2006, 11:21 AM

I'm pretty sure the Kurds have no issue with separation. It's not necessarily a matter of imposing anything on anyone, Gary, just assisting them in setting up what they want, then getting out. If they really don't want any assistance (which doesn't seem to be the case, based on Iraqi polls), then we should just get out now and let them kill each other in peace!

Actually, the U.S.-Iraq war was over a long time ago. What they have had for the past few years is a state of civil war with an American occupation.

Sandi22 · November-9th-2006, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John P. Cooper

Really? How many? Stats? Sources? Why did they change their minds?

Don't you remember the embassy's saying they couldn't keep up with the demands - all of the telephone calls and emails they were getting from people trying to get the hell out of Dodge?

I don't have stats, but it was common knowledge.