Garrison Keillor: Dirtbag

[Dr Dave]

I couldn't believe this. What an asshole.

Keillor on Christmas

Quote: (emphasis added)

There are people who feel "excluded" by Christian symbolism and are offended by the manger and the angels and the Child, but there have always been humorless, legalistic people. Complaint is an American art form, and in our time it has been raised to an operatic level. To which one can only say: Get a life. When you go to France, you don't expect a stack of buckwheat pancakes for breakfast or Le Monde to print box scores. You're in France. Now you're in America. It's a Christian culture. Work with it.

Last time I heard, this was a pluralistic culture.

[Gentle Giant]

America. Where all the radio hosts are average.

[Vince Kargatis]

What I find most hilarious about these "Christmas" wars is how many people somehow conceive of it as non-secular and non-pagan. Quick, what holiday is this: decorated trees, lights, gift-giving, magic people that live at the north pole, seasonal music, winter, holiday. Most trappings of Christmas have no overt relationship to Christianity at all, having, of course, foundations in age-old Saturnalia and winter solstice celebrations. Christianity simply co-opted a big celebration that already existed, and by now, in contemporary culture, it would exist full-force with no help from religion whatsoever. In that sense, I agree with Keillor - get over it - if you take exception to the Christian aspects of Christmas, open your eyes - they're barely there.

[walto]

Uch, you're all taking the X out of X-mas!

[Vince Kargatis]

I often use "xmas", but I have no problem with "Christmas", which by now is pure label, no different than the dating system we use. I regard its etymological origin as largely meaningless, and deliberately used it in my post above.

[walto]

I used "xmas" in an email to somebody at work recently, and she was terribly offended. I was taking the Christ out of Christmas, and she was very opposed to that. I think she really dislikes me now.

[Gary Sisco]

It's one of the great, mindless myths here. Many of the sacred Founders were Deists if anything. They were men very much of the Enlightenment. Their concept of a Creator didn't include anything we'd think of today as Christianity (or then for that matter). They may have believed in a Creator but it wasn't of the Christian kind in the form of a God that takes interest in personal affairs or personal saviors or any of those Christian precepts. It resembled much more the ancient concept of the Unmoved Mover. Still others were Unitarians, which is also far from any Christianity as it is conceived today. Very far.

Christmas, as it is celebrated today, is a creation of late 19th C commercial enterprise and the early beginnings of mass advertising. In the "founding" days of the Republic its celebration was as often opposed by Christians as not, and when it was celebrated, for example in Boston, it was in ways I'm sure people would find unacceptable today. Crowds of rowdies filled the streets banging on the doors of the wealthy demanding food and drink. The idea of the quiet family gathering -- and the crucial giftgiving (ie, buying) -- was pushed as a way to control this sort of thing.

It's an invention and mythology that doesn't hold up to history. New Amsterdam in fact had longer lasting cultural ramifications on the US as we know it than did the Puritans of New England, in any case. Most of the personal liberty, live and let live aspects of American culture (apparently fading today) descend from Dutch New Amsterdam. Which was in its time as multicultural and cosmopolitan as NYC is today. There were as many other types of people there from the beginning as there were Dutch, one of the reasons for a more relaxed attitude toward different kinds of people occupying the same place, the Dutch being profoundly more liberal in this respect than the Brit puritans of New England.

It's a shame how little people know their own history. It's fascinating to know and understand the culture's evolutionary aspects. For decades now I've called Americans' ahistoricism the permanent present tense. It's that and that only that allows for so much misunderstanding and sometimes outright lies about the culture and what's traditional and what isn't.

Christmas isn't. In the forming period of the republic it was scene, correctly in many ways, by the Puritans and other Christians as a pagan holdover at best and idolatry at worst.

Every year we have to have these same conversations.

Keillor has long made my skin crawl, anyway. I can't stand to hear his program and have wondered for many years if I were the only one. Treacle, to me.

[Gary Sisco]

The x has been used at least since colonial times. It can be seen in letters and so forth from the period. It's been a common abbreviation for centuries. Again, not a new thing and its mistaken to think so.

[walto]

The x has been used at least since colonial times

I've used it almost that long myself. And, actually, I think it's probably more likely to make somebody think of "The Cross" than "Christmas" is anyhow.

But, personally, I like the fewer keystroke aspect of it best.

[lynn]

I thought Christmas was hijacked by Sear and Robuck.

[cookie]

I like Garrison Keillor (apparently that makes me a square), but I was surprised by his Christmas column. It seems rather out of line with his general folksy liberalness.

I disagree with him that anybody's trying to take Christmas away from little girls. Christmas will NEVER be killed by politics because it's just too damned fun. The Puritans tried it. They failed. Mince pie trumps piety.

[LennyH]

Keillor is saying that people should embrace the non-religious aspects of Christmas, many of which can be enjoyable for all.

What's the big deal?

[Dr Dave]

Originally Posted by walto

I used "xmas" in an email to somebody at work recently, and she was terribly offended. I was taking the Christ out of Christmas, and she was very opposed to that. I think she really dislikes me now.

She's the kind of enemy you should be proud of.

[Dr Dave]

Originally Posted by LennyH

Keillor is saying that people should embrace the non-religious aspects of Christmas, many of which can be enjoyable for all.

What's the big deal?

As Satch said, "If you have to ask, man, you ain't never gonna find out."

[Dr Dave]

Originally Posted by Vince Kargatis

What I find most hilarious about these "Christmas" wars is how many people somehow conceive of it as non-secular and non-pagan. Quick, what holiday is this: decorated trees, lights, gift-giving, magic people that live at the north pole, seasonal music, winter, holiday. Most trappings of Christmas have no overt relationship to Christianity at all, having, of course, foundations in age-old Saturnalia and winter solstice celebrations. Christianity simply co-opted a big celebration that already existed, and by now, in contemporary culture, it would exist full-force with no help from religion whatsoever. In that sense, I agree with Keillor - get over it - if you take exception to the Christian aspects of Christmas, open your eyes - they're barely there.

I agree, Vince. It was the "Christian culture" line that pissed me off. I'm not a Christian. My wife's not a Christian. I'm proud to be an American (still!) and I'm not sitting still for anybody's bullshit about how I gotta lump it. I don't gotta lump it, and Keillor can kiss my hairy Pagan ass.

[LennyH]

Originally Posted by Dr Dave

As Satch said, "If you have to ask, man, you ain't never gonna find out."

Look, it's not that I don't understand your point or that I agree with him (I'm non-religious and the xmas season, for the most part, makes me want to hurl). I was just wondering why this is offensive to the point where you single him out over all the more deserving dirtbags.

[Root Doctor]

As Sally tells Charlie Brown about her extensive Christmas list: "All I want is what I have coming to me. All I want is my fair share."

[Gary Sisco]

I don't embrace the non-religious aspects of it because they are not enjoyable for me. Period.

There are enjoyable, non-religious aspects to any religion's holidays or fasts. Christmas is far from the only. Mardis Gras or Carnival is an example among many. Indeed, it wouldn't do any harm for Americans to observe some fasts, as they are supposed to as the other side of the carnival celebration, actually.

They won't, though, and for largely the same reasons I don't observe Christmas. It's someone else's religion, someone else's ritual behavior, regardless of its nonreligious pleasures.

Why not celebrate the healthful aspects of Ramadan? One needn't be a Moslem to enjoy its non-religious and even healthful aspects.

I'm not joking here, by the way, to be clear. I think there is a place in human life as such for ritual observances that don't at all necessarily depend on religion. For example, it's not a bad idea to stop for a few moments and remember where food comes from and how and so forth. I observe Veterans' Day and Memorial Day rituals and it wouldn't hurt a lot more people in this society to do so apart from having a three-day weekend and big sales down at the hardware store.

Dream on, however.

Thing is, regardless of my thoughts on the matter, I don't expect anyone to observe these things *unless they want to for meaningful reasons of their own.*

I don't ask anyone to do anything at all and I don't think it much of a request for people to go ahead and celebrate their own holidays in ways they think fitting while leaving me out of it, as I leave them out of mine.

I used to loathe the pretension of it all at work, when the holiday party was so intentionally pretending not to be a christmas party despite the time of year, the decorations, the gift giving, and etc. -- all christmas but what they called it.

I'm not into pretense or posing and I don't think it much of a request to leave people out of it if it means nothing to them. And that's what it means to me. Nothing. It's a mass psychosis and orgy of consumerism from my perspective, nothing more.

[LennyH]

I hear you, Gary. I don't "observe" Christmas either. The distinction, I guess, is whether you believe that parts of xmas have taken on a non-Christian life of their own and whether some of those things are worth enjoying. For me, some are.

I say "Merry Christmas" to my family and most of my friends, buy gifts (OK, my wife does) and have about 30 people over on xmas day to play pool, listen to Jazz, drink plenty and eat a great dinner. All of this stuff could not be further away from religion for me.

But I wish they could be done with a lot less fanfare. The season, taken as a whole, is painful to me.

[Sergio Zamora]

Fixed

Originally Posted by Garrison Keillor (quoted by Dr Dave)

Now you're in America. It's a grossly, compulsively consumeristic culture veiled with a thin layer of tradition. Work with it.

[rollhead]

Say what you will about him, but he does have a great face for radio.

[Sergio Zamora]

Originally Posted by rollhead

Say what you will about him, but he does have a great face for radio.

He looks like a much older Dwight Schrute (played by Rainn Wilson) from 'The Office' (US)

[Gentle Giant]

My mother-in-law, a progressive woman in her day (and still), was born into a Conservative Jewish family. As a teenager, she found it patriarchical and hypocritical so she became a Unitarian. She's never believed in God and to her, Easter and Christmas are purely about celebrating the earth; the former is about the earth waking up, and the latter is about bringing greens and lights out of the cold and dark and into the warm home.

My wife was raised in these traditions, though she knew from college (during which she connected with observant but more liberal Jewish relatives) that when she got married, she wanted to have a Jewish household. For the last 16 years, I've been celebrating Christmas with my in-laws.

For a while, it was fine for me because it was all about getting presents and eating and drinking. There was no religious aspect to it, either actual or implied. One year I went with my mother-in-law to her Unitarian church for a Christmas service. I left feeling a stronger connection to my Judaism.

Now that I have kids, though, it does make me a little more uncomfortable. It's not just the Chanukkah vs. Christmas thing. One of the things about being Jewish is about being different and separate in some way. I don't necessarily like how much my daughter loves Christmas, not because it's Christian but because it's so...well...mainstream. Keillor is right. This is a white, Christian country. I can't help being white, but things like this make me especially proud to be Jewish.

I have to admit, I was the one to tell my daughter years ago that there is no Santa Claus. I also have to admit that I enjoyed doing it.

Because of the gift overload, my wife and I are strategizing to make Chanukkah less about gifts and more about charity. We're going to try to convince our daughter that it's better to give than to receive, and find a way to make a donation each of the eight nights.

[moneyp]

I didn't really get out of it what you did, Dave. In fact, the article is kind of meandering, never really settling on a point. But in some respects, I agree with him. People make too much of religious symbolism. What's so offensive about mangers and angels in public, anyway? What would we think of the person that got upset at the public display of the Star of David or a menorah? Or Buddha statues, which can be found in Chinese restaurants all over the country? I think some people have unnecessarily developed a persecution complex regarding "Christ-based faiths." As long as we're not drafting laws based on it, who cares?

[jesus marion joseph]

Originally Posted by walto

I think she really dislikes me now.

Maybe you should follow up with an email wherein you tell her to "fuck off" and seal the deal! You know, "Merry Christmas you fucking hag", or something like that.

[walto]

things like this make me especially proud to be Jewish.

Seems like there's no more than a handful of things that don't, Jason.

[Monte Smith]

Dave, you need to control your tendency to have a hissy fit if anyone mentions that this is a Christian country, because they'll be saying it all your life because it's true. Calling America Christian is something else than saying our government is a theocracy or that all Americans are Christian. The first is obviously wrong, and the second premise is only true of the great majority of Americans. And after all, if it was true that America was not a Christian country than it would not be a Christian country in precisely the same way that it is not an Islamic country or a Buddhist country. But it isn't true that we're unchristian in the same way as we are unislamic. We took our religion, as we took our laws and our language, because we took our culture, from the country which gave birth to us and that country, as I never tire of remembering, was dear exalted England. A Christian country, particularly at that period. And we've had a lot of other influences, foreign and aboriginal, all making America unique but none seriously rivaling the maternal heritage we draw from the UK as the broad, popular culture of the majority. Sucks to be you if this is going to cause fist shaking chez Dave, but you can always dissent and not fear theocrats less mild than our Mr Keillor. Happy Christmas.

[steve(thelil)]

I often find the show Prairie Home Companion - and Keillor himself - to be annoyingly and/or cloyingly precious. At other times, I find one or the other (or both) to be quite clever and amusing. I think the Altman movie that is sort of based on the show (but also a surreal reimagining of it) is brilliant and quite amusing.

[walto]

if it was true that America was not a Christian country than it would not be a Christian country in precisely the same way that it is not an Islamic country or a Buddhist country.

So you and Dave mean something different by "Christian country." You mean "has a ton of Christians living in it," and he means something like "owes special allegiance, etc. to Christianity and Christian tenets." Mazel tov. That doesn't make him wrong, you know? He's just saying something different from you when he denies that this is a Christian country.

Also, your suggestion that our laws are somehow Christian isn't very compelling. What's the basis for that--other than your twin views that we're better than any other country and that Christianity is better than any other religion?

[Vince Kargatis]

I'm not going to mention how the above debate would be much clearer in E-Prime.

Oh, oops.