Stéphane Dion

[Jazzzoline]

Naw, he's not Céline's brother, although they may be related.

Patricia, Claude, canadians, or others, what do you think of Mr Dion being the new chief of the Liberal party ?

[Brian Olewnick]

Originally Posted by Jazzzoline

Naw, he's not Céline's brother,

You sure?

[Vince Kargatis]

Some coverage from the Ottawa Citizen, fwiw.

[Enforcer]

She has a good voice, but her husband is SO annoying.

[claude]

I'm in the wait and see crowd. I find his focus on the environment an interesting twist, we'll see how that sells come election time, I'm guessing that will be toned down.

I think that the next election will be his to lose since I don't think the Conservatives' far-right social and military agenda will sell east of Manitoba (or west of the Rockies for that matter). As long as Dion and the rest of the Liberals don't screw up royally they should have a majority. Obviously a little French guy won't get many seats in the oil patch, but that won't matter since he'll get a majority of seats in Ontario and BC. Quebec will go mainly Bloc (duh), Alberta, Sask and Manitoba will go Conservative and who cares about what happens in the Maritimes (they'll go Liberal).

[Daniel]

yeah i don't know. i guess he's better than ignatieff but i'd still never even consider voting liberal.

[claude]

Originally Posted by Daniel

yeah i don't know. i guess he's better than ignatieff but i'd still never even consider voting liberal.

Natural Law Party??

[Monte Smith]

So Ignatieff didn't make the cut? Damn it! He was an American plant. We had our chance to take over Canada and blew it.

[Dan G]

I think Dion will be fine as leader of the opposition, because he's already taking digs at Harper on the environment, same sex marriage, etc.

But I don't think he can lead the Liberal party to win the next election. He may be able to get some more seats in Quebec and Ontario, but winning the election (and even more importantly, maintaining good relations across the entire country) means getting a couple of Liberal MPs from the prairies.

And, unfortunately, Dion doesn't have a chance out here in redneck nation. His interest in the environment is problematic, as it might hinder the oil companies from reaping their billions annually. But even worse is his lack of proficiency with English. No way will Alberta suport him - they're still mad at Trudeau for the NEP, and think Chretien was a crook, and they were Quebecois who could speak English.

I've already seen letters in the local newspaper about what a shame it is that Ted Morton didn't get the Alberta Conservative leadership, because we need someone like him to protect us from Dion stealing our money and making us marry people of the same sex. When it comes to election time, that sentiment will just grow.

Personally, I wish Rae would have won. I supported him when I lived in Ontario in the 90s, and I think that, following the debacle that was Mike Harris, even the public service unions there would support him again. The "Rae Days" program may have been hated then, but I think that most people (civil servants, nurses, teachers, etc) realize now that a couple of days off without pay was a far less harsh cost-cutting measure than just slashing the workforce.

But, Rae probably wouldn't have had a chance out here anyway - all the Conservatives would need to do would be mention that he had once been an NDP, and out here that means communist, which is (in redneck nation) about equal to being a child molester.

I don't think any of the Liberal leadership candidates had a chance in the west except maybe Dryden. Ignatieff is too smarmy - most westerners don't like the educated elite. Dryden could at least pretend to be the down to earth guy, remind them that he once played hockey (even though it was for Montreal...) and maybe have a small chance.

[Monte Smith]

Didn't Howard Dean make the keynote address at the Liberal Party conference? Sounds like, if the above analysis is correct, they didn't take Dean's advice to echo the Dem's 50-state strategy and not cede large swaths of the electorate before the election.

[claude]

Originally Posted by Dan G

Personally, I wish Rae would have won. I supported him when I lived in Ontario in the 90s, and I think that, following the debacle that was Mike Harris, even the public service unions there would support him again. The "Rae Days" program may have been hated then, but I think that most people (civil servants, nurses, teachers, etc) realize now that a couple of days off without pay was a far less harsh cost-cutting measure than just slashing the workforce.

But, Rae probably wouldn't have had a chance out here anyway - all the Conservatives would need to do would be mention that he had once been an NDP, and out here that means communist, which is (in redneck nation) about equal to being a child molester.

I don't think any of the Liberal leadership candidates had a chance in the west except maybe Dryden. Ignatieff is too smarmy - most westerners don't like the educated elite. Dryden could at least pretend to be the down to earth guy, remind them that he once played hockey (even though it was for Montreal...) and maybe have a small chance.

My pick was Rae also. Truly, I think that the Liberals wouldn't get seats in the prairies regardless of who was in the leader's chair. I don't think I could have taken many more hockey analogies so I'm glad that Ken didn't win.

So, do you think we're heading for a string of minority governments? I think the Conservatives have shown their hand now wrt military, intolerance, far-right lunacy etc etc and I would be surprised if they get a majority of seats anywhere other than the west.

[Dan G]

I expect to see a Liberal minority in the next election, but hold out hope for, and wouldn't at all be surprised to see, a slim majority. While we aren't a two party system like in the US, there are really only 2 parties with the potential to form a government. Given that choice, I far prefer a Liberal majority, though I think a minority with a lot of power resting on stronger presence from the Greens might be interesting. Right now, with the NDP and the Bloc having the balance of power, it is OK (I like the Bloc, and have been an NDP supporter all my life until Layton took over). But more input from the Green Party would help.

I think Dion might be able to gain enough support in Quebec and Ontario to bring it back. If Harper doesn't do something about our soldiers dying in Afghanistan (which he won't until GWB tells him he can) and does manage to re-open the same sex marriage issue (but that's probably gonna die out in Parliament, and he'll at least be able to say he tried), he might have problems. I think those issues will cost the Cons support from the middle of the spectrum fence sitters who were just mad enough at the Libs over corruption to give him a chance.

[patricia]

I think that the only reason that Stephen Harper is Prime Minister now is the AdScam corruption inquiry [Gomery Report] which was front and centre for months.
Without that, Paul Martin would still be our Prime Minister.
I live among oil people and rednecks and I've never seen so many Conservatives in my life.
I dare not talk politics here.
I must confess that I had barely heard of Stephane Dion, before he won the leadership race.
I'm willing to wait and see how he does.
His French accent and shaky hold on English shouldn't be a problem, but it is for those who are ticked that their cereal box has two languages on it.
So, we'll see.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by claude

Natural Law Party??

uh

[Dan G]

Originally Posted by patricia

I live among oil people and rednecks and I've never seen so many Conservatives in my life.
I dare not talk politics here..

I'm only 3 hours north of you Patricia, up here in capital city, and luckily I'm at the university, so most of the people I know are fairly moderate.

I must confess that I had barely heard of Stephane Dion, before he won the leadership race.
I'm willing to wait and see how he does.
His French accent and shaky hold on English shouldn't be a problem, but it is for those who are ticked that their cereal box has two languages on it.

that accounts for most of rural Alberta (except for Morinville, the small French enclave north of here) and a large percentage of the urban population too.

When I moved here a few years ago, it really shocked me the first few times I heard people talking shit about Quebec and Quebecois. Now, I just find it a bit pathetic. Most of them have never left this province, and they're just still pissed off at Trudeau, so think they have to hate all the French.

[Felix]

Originally Posted by Dan G

When I moved here a few years ago, it really shocked me the first few times I heard people talking shit about Quebec and Quebecois. Now, I just find it a bit pathetic. Most of them have never left this province, and they're just still pissed off at Trudeau, so think they have to hate all the French.

Hey, many of us Quebecois hate Trudeau too, for different reasons.

[Jazzzoline]

Originally Posted by Brian Olewnick

You sure?

Ha Ha
Funny

[Jazzzoline]

My opinion about why Dion won is that was a direct reaction to the last Harper's move about Québec being a "Nation" (in a united Canada).
Actually, while nobody here doesn't know exactly where Harper is going with that, and even separatist party doesn't know what to do with it, Dion made it clear that Harper was wrong, and I'm not sure other liberal wannabe chiefs mentionned anything about it, or openly took position. So there he is, the lil French guy who says it's wrong to think that Québec must be something any special than any other province. Here's the guy we need to kick out Harper, they all thought.

Here Dion isn't very well known. He's known to be a Kyoto supporter, and even called his dog Kyoto. Does that mean Carbonneau should call his parrot Stanley cup?

People were surprised to know he's won, beating "big" people like Rae, Ignatieff and even a Kennedy!! wow! Does Canada seem so pathetic to American citizens ?

Actually he reminds me of Bourassa (Québec prime minister in the 70-80's), by his style: Shyguy look, soft handshake and looking aside when he should look directly in people's eyes. Nothing close to Trudeau.

[Jazzzoline]

Originally Posted by Dan G

When I moved here a few years ago, it really shocked me the first few times I heard people talking shit about Quebec and Quebecois.

What did they say?

What's so wrong about Trudeau beside being so very arrogant?

[Dan G]

Originally Posted by Jazzzoline

What did they say?

What's so wrong about Trudeau beside being so very arrogant?

Typical Albertan comments about Quebec and its residents include:
- they should all learn English
- they are all arrogant
- if they don't want to be part of Canada, move back to France (about the separatists)
- they want to control our oil revenue (because most of the recent PMs have been from Quebec, and also refers to Trudeau (see below)
- in general, everyone east of Manitoba is either a socialist (equal to child molester or murderer on the Alberta morality scale) or a lazy welfare bum, or both, and just wants Alberta to support them.

Of course, most of these people have never met someone from Quebec. They just hate them because they are different, and because Albertans (ones born here, not newcomers like Patricia and I) think that anyone who wants to be different from them wants special privilege.

As to Trudeau, it has to do with the National Energy Program. Here's the Wikipedia version. People out here keep saying that it will happen again if the Liberals are in charge. For Edmontonians, it was the worst thing to happen in the last century, except for Pocklington selling Gretsky. Neither Trudeau or Pocklington will ever be forgiven...

[Vince Kargatis]

Originally Posted by Jazzzoline

Harper's move about Québec being a "Nation" (in a united Canada).

Specifically, the Québecois the cultural entity, not Québec the province.

[Jazzzoline]

Originally Posted by Dan G

Typical Albertan comments about Quebec and its residents include:
- they should all learn English

True!

Originally Posted by Dan G

- they are all arrogant

Only a few of us are

Originally Posted by Dan G

- if they don't want to be part of Canada, move back to France (about the separatists)

They don't want us!

Originally Posted by Dan G

- they want to control our oil revenue (because most of the recent PMs have been from Quebec, and also refers to Trudeau (see below)

Short memory they have. there was a time when Québec and Ontario ( in that order) supported the rest of the Canada.

Originally Posted by Dan G

- in general, everyone east of Manitoba is either a socialist (equal to child molester or murderer on the Alberta morality scale) or a lazy welfare bum

Sadly, more and more true,

Originally Posted by Dan G

or both, and just wants Alberta to support them.

Actually no, that's what separation is about: autonomy.

Originally Posted by Dan G

Of course, most of these people have never met someone from Quebec.

I met a guy called Shouldice once, desecndant of Calgary city's fonder

Originally Posted by Dan G

They just hate them

The least I can tell he really liked me!

Originally Posted by Dan G

because they are different, and because Albertans (ones born here, not newcomers like Patricia and I) think that anyone who wants to be different from them wants special privilege.

That's what we thought when Harper mentionned his stuff about "Québec as a Nation": We stop paying taxes and we have our "full" paycheck. weeeeeeeee!!!

Originally Posted by Dan G

As to Trudeau, it has to do with the National Energy Program. Here's the Wikipedia version. People out here keep saying that it will happen again if the Liberals are in charge. For Edmontonians, it was the worst thing to happen in the last century, except for Pocklington selling Gretsky. Neither Trudeau or Pocklington will ever be forgiven...

Ahh, Hockey, isn't it heatbreaking sometimes, I remember a hockey team called Nordiques...

About that slogan "let's them all easterners freeze in the dark!" what is it to say...

[Dan G]

Originally Posted by Vince Kargatis

Specifically, the Québecois the cultural entity, not Québec the province.

Yeah, those last 3 letters get missed in most of the references to Harper's plan. A 'Quebecois nation' c/sh/would include a large French-speaking population in Manitoba, a few pockets of them in Alberta, and much of eastern Ontario. It would probably be similar to the Metis Nation, which really has very little political clout.

I was discussing this with my secretary a few days ago, because out here there is much discussion on talk radio and in letters to newspapers that if Quebec can be a nation (note, they all say Quebec, not -ois), then so should Alberta, because we have our own culture. What constitutes that culture besides greed, intolerance, stupidity and Ian Tyson, I'm not sure, but...at least one of the 4 is good! So we're thinking of starting a movement that would be equivalent to the Quebecois nation, and calling it Redneck Nation. Already working on designing the bumper stickers!

[Enforcer]

Originally Posted by Jazzzoline

Ahh, Hockey, isn't it heatbreaking sometimes, I remember a hockey team called Nordiques...

[Dan G]

Getting back to Dion for a moment, a friend's daughter works for the Liberal party. She was part of the planning of the convention. She said that since in the past few days, they have had a huge number of people calling wanting to volunteer for them, and they are selling an unprecedented amount of memberships. So maybe there is hope.

[patricia]

To gain some insight into Alberta's tenuous relationship with Ottawa, it might be interesting to read Peter Foster's Blue-Eyed Shieks. It is a detailed account of the Federal Government's back and forth with Peter Laugheed, the Premier of Alberta, during the oil revenue-sharing discussions a couple of decades ago.
Albertans, sitting on huge deposits of both traditional sources of petroleum, as well as the more difficult to access oil-sands have felt that the Federal government wants to steal this natural resource from them.
While they were not a have-not province before oil was discovered, they were not the obscenely wealthy province they are now. Many resent what they see as the grabby attitude of the Federal Government, now that the province has wealth, when some felt ignored prior.
From what I as a newcomer can gather, this is the main reason for the periodic talk of separation by some in Alberta.

[Vince Kargatis]

I gather from Dan G's comments that Alberta is the Texas of Canada.

Except for the tenuous connections to DC, unfortunately.

[patricia]

Originally Posted by Vince Kargatis

I gather from Dan G's comments that Alberta is the Texas of Canada.

Except for the tenuous connections to DC, unfortunately.

In fact, a huge number of Americans work in the oil industry and live here in Calgary. So, Dan is right. Many Albertans also think that George W Bush and his administration are on the level of Gods. It's really disconcerting.

[Dan G]

The comparisons of Texas and Alberta are dead on: cows, oil, money, pickup trucks, guns... Fortunately, Edmonton (where I live) is the 'leftist' area of the province, but that's still pretty farther right than most of the country.

And yeah, Patricia's comment about the reverence for the Bush administration is accurate. Our now-retired premier Ralph Klein is probably the only provincial leader to meet with a US president (it was Dubya) and to address Congress; Cheney was invited to come tour the oil sands.

The Klein/Bush meeting and appearance at Congress annoyed the federal gov't, who see that as overstepping the boundaries of intergovernmental responsibilities. And then, to make it worse, the feds got really pissed when the Alberta government opened a provincial office in Washington - basically, similar to a consulate, but for this province only. It's supposedly the only one there is, and the provincial reps I've spoken to about it are quite proud of it, and also of the fact that they have more contact with Washington lobbyists than Ottawa does.