The Best Key in Which to Play or Sing Jazz

[GoodSpeak]

I have always wondered about this.

How do musicians pick the key they want to play a particular tune in?

Are there favorite or preferred keys? If so, what are they?

Do vocalists prefer one key over another? Why?

How and why is the choice made?

Does it vary professional to professional?

Is it the same concern for amateurs/beginners?



I've always wanted to know...


TimMc

[Nate Dorward]

(1) comfortable range (2) fingering (on an instrument) (3) the coloration particular to each key (though I think this is more of a concern of classical music, where each key often has particular associations).

[Tanager]

What Nate said. Pieces written specifically for classical guitar, for instance, will usually be in keys with relatively few accidentals, such as E/A minor, C/G/D major. You won't see guitar pieces written in keys more typically found in horn charts, like Bb/Eb, etc.

[GoodSpeak]

Lois/Mone:

Why would 'Ask The Musicians' be a better place for this thread?

I see it as a kind of "all purpose" musician's thread.




Some of us on this BBS ain't Pros.


'Splain, please?

[Pete C]

A singer needs a key that will keep the tune within his range. This is often different than the key instrumentalists might normally choose for the same tune.

[Underhound]

It seems to me that most of your standard tunes in Real Books/Fake Books are in the key of E flat. Can any of you more learned musicians explain why that is. Were they all written that way? Is it an easier key for certain instruments? Do they publish them that way on purpose?
Its a lousy key for guitar and when learning these songs I usually end up transposing them to a key that's more guitar friendly.

[cookie]

It's my understanding that the standard keys of tunes developed at least in part because publishers of sheet music wanted to fit the melody onto the staff and reduce the number of ledger lines used.

Singers do use keys that fit comfortably in their voice ranges or the part of their range they wish to feature. The overall range of each song is a consideration and the goal is to put the song in the most comfortable place so that the singer doesn't have to strain at either end of the spectrum.

A general rule of thumb I've found is that moving a song a fourth or fifth below the original key works well for female vocalists and going a third or minor third below works well for male vocalists. Of course, different songs and different singers may vary.

Key changes the character of a song, particularly when sung, I think. I have a big range and am capable of singing many songs convincingly in their original keys. This makes it easy to sing with bands who can't or won't play in non-standard keys. However, there is a difference in how I approach a song like "All of Me" in it's original key of C and how I approach it in my preferred key of Ab. Because C is higher, I have to use a more sweet toned voice whereas in Ab, there's more chest in the voice--it's a little fuller sound.

Just my 2 bits.

[Tanager]

Originally posted by Underhound
It seems to me that most of your standard tunes in Real Books/Fake Books are in the key of E flat...Is it an easier key for certain instruments?

I believe so for horns/winds.

Question: Is an appreciation of the particular "coloration" offered by different keys a pleasure reserved only for those with something approaching perfect pitch?

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Originally posted by Underhound
It seems to me that most of your standard tunes in Real Books/Fake Books are in the key of E flat. Can any of you more learned musicians explain why that is. Were they all written that way? Is it an easier key for certain instruments? Do they publish them that way on purpose?
Its a lousy key for guitar and when learning these songs I usually end up transposing them to a key that's more guitar friendly.

Eb is a "horn-friendly" key, ie. alto sax will be in "C" when concert tuned instruments (piano,guitar, bass) are in Eb. Meanwhile, tenor sax and trumpets wind up in the key of F, which is pretty friendly as well.

I don't there is such a thing as a "lousy" key for guitar. Any competent jazz guitarist can cover the standards in any key. It should be noted that the common grips used by jazz guitarists don't rely on using open strings (like folky cords), not to say they are excluded, but the voicings are very movable along the fingerboard.

[Tanager]

Originally posted by mark kleinhaut
Eb is a "horn-friendly" key, ie. alto sax will be in "C" when concert tuned instruments (piano,guitar, bass) are in Eb. Meanwhile, tenor sax and trumpets wind up in the key of F, which is pretty friendly as well.

I don't there is such a thing as a "lousy" key for guitar. Any competent jazz guitarist can cover the standards in any key. It should be noted that the common grips used by jazz guitarists don't rely on using open strings (like folky cords), not to say they are excluded, but the voicings are very movable along the fingerboard.

True. You'll note in my post above I referred specifically to classical guitar, for which open strings are important (for several reasons).

[Underhound]

I don't there is such a thing as a "lousy" key for guitar. Any competent jazz guitarist can cover the standards in any key. It should be noted that the common grips used by jazz guitarists don't rely on using open strings (like folky cords), not to say they are excluded, but the voicings are very movable along the fingerboard.

OK so maybe lousy is the wrong word. How about less lovely ? And I'm not a very capable jazz guitarist but rather an untrained amateur trying to teach myself some solo arrangements for my own recreation. Though I am able to finger lots of fancy chords without relying on open strings, the fact still remains that the lowest E flat in standard tuning is too high to provide a nice low root note when playing unaccompanied arrangements.

And thanks to Tanager for answering my original question

[mke]

Originally posted by John L
Question: Is an appreciation of the particular "coloration" offered by different keys a pleasure reserved only for those with something approaching perfect pitch?

Not at all.

The scale-specific coloration and character ended with the tempered scale ("The Well-Tempered Clavier" by Bach in 1722 enshrined equal temperament over natural harmonics).

Here's a succint explanation (http://home.broadpark.no/~rbrekne/referhtml/epi380.html):

"The notes of a tempered scale are just a little off the natural harmonics of vibrating strings. (...)
The good news is that equal temperament lets you transpose freely on a fixed-pitch instrument. If you didn't have it, you'd be able to play a piano accurately in only one key. That's a tradeoff most modern musicians are willing to make."

Previously, keyboard instruments were tuned in such a way that the more sharps and flats a key had, the wierder/more dissonant it sounded, as the instrument was not tuned equally as it is today.

There's a much longer explanation (though it's referred to as "A Short History") on the same site at http://home.broadpark.no/~rbrekne/re...uninghist.html

This short quote from the above-linked article illustrates "coloration":

"Well if we tuned a piano to pure intervals, we'd soon find out that while a C Major 7 chord sounds fine, playing an F# Major 7 would set our teeth on edge - in fact, in a pure temperament tuned on C, a C Major 7 chord would sound much "sweeter" than it would on a modern equally tempered keyboard."

The notes of the F# Major 7 chord are F# A# C# and E# (as you can see, a lot of sharps). That brings to mind another example: E# on the piano is the same key as F, but in "reality" E# is slightly higher than F. More info as to why this is (the Comma) can be found here: http://www.rdrop.com/users/tblackb/music/temperament/

mke: Thanks for that fascinating information. I recall reading about the "tempered scale" long ago. I didn't understand it well then, and have forgotten what I read anyway.

From this discussion, it seems clear that different keys had distinct "colorations" before the advent of the tempered scale. What about now? Knowledgeable people still claim that a piece will have a different feel if played in a different key, even separate from the effect of differing technical facilities required of various instruments. Playing a Beethoven symphony in a transposed key would be sufficient to cause a riot at most concert halls.

On the other hand I do not have perfect pitch, and, as a listener, don't really react to the key that a piece is played in. I am wondering if that is a deficiency that goes with the territory (absence of perfect pitch), or if it is still possible to "feel" a key without being able to pick any individual note out of the air.

[Tanager]

Originally posted by Underhound
OK so maybe lousy is the wrong word. How about less lovely ? And I'm not a very capable jazz guitarist but rather an untrained amateur trying to teach myself some solo arrangements for my own recreation. Though I am able to finger lots of fancy chords without relying on open strings, the fact still remains that the lowest E flat in standard tuning is too high to provide a nice low root note when playing unaccompanied arrangements.

And thanks to Tanager for answering my original question

Underhound, if you're going to play unaccompanied, and you really want to play in Eb (instead of transposing up a half-step), I myself would simply tune down a half-step. In one case, I was playing around with "Maiden Voyage" - the version I was working off of had the main harmony as Am7/D - so I just tuned down the low E string to D. There's no law that says you have to remain in Spanish tuning all the time, and lots of guitarists don't.

[Tanager]

Originally posted by John L
From this discussion, it seems clear that different keys had distinct "colorations" before the advent of the tempered scale. What about now?

Nigel Tufnel has been quite clear in stating that he feels that D minor is the saddest of all keys, which is why he uses it in his very moving work, "Lick My Love Pump."

[Underhound]

Ah, Tufnel.
He is most wise !












(Hey what happened to my toolbar thing that enables me to use quotes, italics, etc. ?)

[GoodSpeak]

Originally posted by Pete C
A singer needs a key that will keep the tune within his range. This is often different than the key instrumentalists might normally choose for the same tune.

Damn, Pete.

You actually said something positive.

Wow.




You keep this up and people just might actually believe what you say.


Well done, my boy.

[Nathaniel Catchpole]

I have perfect pitch, so maybe no the best person to comment on this.

Stringed instruments use combinations of open strings and fingered strings, which sound very different - therefore putting a tune in a key with lots of open fingerings would change the tone-quality of the instrument. Similarly, the position of the keys on the saxophone has an effect on the individual sounds of each note. A lot of players have instrument specific pitch memory - they retain what each note sounds like on their instrument due to the slight changes in tone from one note to the other.

If you sit at a piano, and compare Eb and E directly above middle C, there are slight changes in both the pitch AND the tone quality - that might be a perfect pitch thing, or there might be those changes no matter who's listening.

[mke]

Maybe on string instruments there is more of a sense of coloration because F# is different from Gb, which it isn't on a piano?

Damn, Pete.

You actually said something positive.

I didn't find his statement positive or negative. Simply informative.

[Tanager]

Originally posted by mke
Maybe on string instruments there is more of a sense of coloration because F# is different from Gb, which it isn't on a piano?

Huh?

[mke]

"Huh?"

See: http://www.rdrop.com/users/tblackb/m...erament/#comma

F -> F# is 5 commas
F -> Gb is 4 commas

hence F# and Gb are two different notes, separated by 1 comma.

The piano evens out this difference by separating all half-tones by 4.5 commas. On a string instrument (maybe not on guitar due to the frets?) maybe it is possible to play the "real" sharps and flats?

[Tanager]

Originally posted by mke
"Huh?"

See: http://www.rdrop.com/users/tblackb/m...erament/#comma

F -> F# is 5 commas
F -> Gb is 4 commas

hence F# and Gb are two different notes, separated by 1 comma.

The piano evens out this difference by separating all half-tones by 4.5 commas. On a string instrument (maybe not on guitar due to the frets?) maybe it is possible to play the "real" sharps and flats?

Unless you're playing harmonics or on a fretless instrument (or you can bend reallyaccurately, which I cannot), nope, F# and Gb are the same on a guitar for the reason you cite.

That's really interesting stuff, my teacher has alluded to it, but I never really saw any discussion of the details. Thanks for posting it, mke.

[mke]

That was the theory, but can one really hear a one comma difference? Nat?

Interesting discussion, guys. Thanks.

I think that what Nat has in mind is not a slight (one comma) difference in pitch, but the tonal character of the note. On many instruments, scales in different keys will sound different even if the relative pitch is perfectly transposed. So, for example, if I am composing something that features a flute, I will want to choose a key while thinking about differences in the tonal character of notes produced on the flute in different keys (in addition to the relative technical facility needed to play them).

Right, Nat?

[Tanager]

Originally posted by John L
Interesting discussion, guys. Thanks.

I think that what Nat has in mind is not a slight (one comma) difference in pitch, but the tonal character of the note. On many instruments, scales in different keys will sound different even if the relative pitch is perfectly transposed. So, for example, if I am composing something that features a flute, I will want to choose a key while thinking about differences in the tonal character of notes produced on the flute in different keys (in addition to the relative technical facility needed to play them).

Right, Nat?

Similarly, one can vary the sound of the same note, depending on where on a guitar one chooses to play it - even without transposing - this is a common device in classical guitar for varying the sound of the piece (among many others).

[willy]

Fb is always a good key.

[mke]

Originally posted by John L
I think that what Nat has in mind is not a slight (one comma) difference in pitch, but the tonal character of the note

I realise that, I was just wondering if he could hear that difference.

"Similarly, one can vary the sound of the same note, depending on where on a guitar one chooses to play it"

Yes, on piano too: e.g. the lowest register has a rumbling, indinstinct quality which gives a very physical, tangible to the vibrations but also means that you can't play chords in the same way you would in the middle register; the very topmost notes don't have any dampers on the strings, so they reverberate in a slightly ethereal way and have a thinner sound. For some reason, I get more of a feeling for the mechanism of the piano and wood sliding against wood in those topmost notes.

[Tanager]

Actually, mke, I wasn't talking about changing registers - different fingeringss of exactly the same notes will produce different tonal qualities, depending on the overtones produced/sympathetic vibrations, etc.

[mke]

Just intonation explained

The beginning is a little tedious, but it pays off in the 3rd and 4th sections.

For those who are too lazy:


My teacher, Ben Johnston, was convinced that our tuning is responsible for much of our cultural psychology, the fact that we are so geared toward progress and action and violence and so little attuned to introspection, contentment, and acquiesence. Equal temperament could be described as the musical equivalent to eating a lot of red meat and processed sugars and watching violent action films. The music doesn't turn your attention inward, it makes you want to go out and work off your nervous energy on something.

On a more subtle level, after I've been immersed in just intonation for a couple of weeks, equal temperament music begins to sound insipid, bland, colorless. There are only eleven types of intervals available instead of the potential several dozen that exist in even the simplest just system, and you don't get gradations of different sizes of major third or major sixths the way you do in just tuning. On a piano in just intonation, moving from one tonic to another changes the whole interval makeup of the key, and you get a really specific, visceral feel for where you are on the pitch map. That feeling disappears in bland, all-keys-the-same equal temperament. As a composer, I enjoy having the option, if I'm going to use a minor third interval, of being able to choose among the 7/6, 6/5, 19/16, and 11/9 varieties, each with its own individual feeling.

Far beyond the mere theoretical purity, playing in just intonation for long periods sensitizes me to a myriad colors, and coming back to the equal tempered world is like seeing everything click back into black and white. It's a disappointing readjustment. Come to think of it, maybe you shouldn't try just intonation - you'll become unfit to live in the West, and have to move to India or Bali.