Big, Phat and Strong

[GoodSpeak]

In this month's JAZZIZ, there is a good article regarding the resurgence of big bands.

The sound is still liked by Jazz fans, but my understanding [talking with Gordon Goodwin over the years] is the sheer cost of putting on a big band performance, let alone what each member of the band will be paid is somewhat prohibitive.

I know GrayPencil [Phil Kelly] has done big band arrangements and Clint's son is touring with his Biggish Band....so I was wondering if anyone here had any further insight to the resurgence of big band and what it really takes to make the show go.


Most notably, for me at least, is Gordon Goodwin's Big Phat Band. Their latest CD is a blast to listen to and is very hip

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by GoodSpeak

what it really takes to make the show go.

Government subsidies. All over Europe there are fantastic big bands, on salary, with plenty of time to rehearse. Like a symphony orchestra, it's their job. Some are connected with radio stations, like NDR & WDR. Tim Hagans is music director for a municipal big band in northern Sweden. These bands often commission works by American musicians, and often feature them as special guests.

[GoodSpeak]

That would be very cool if here in America the NEA could see fit to help these guys along the way. Is there such a mechanism?


What does it take without government help?

[Peterdubya]

It's just difficult to have a big band all the way around.
Moving 15 - 20 people around the country is expensive, then there is the rooming, most people wouuld want their own room, so that can be anywhere from $750 to $2500 or more for one night of lodging. Then there's the actual paying of the band.... the feeding of the band... and more.

[graypencil]

Originally Posted by GoodSpeak

In this month's JAZZIZ,
I know GrayPencil [Phil Kelly] has done big band arrangements and Clint's son is touring with his Biggish Band....so I was wondering if anyone here had any further insight to the resurgence of big band and what it really takes to make the show go.

Goodie:

I do more than" arrangements", I also compose and produce the stuff!

Currently ,I have two CDs out and to toot my own horn a bit, I think they hold up in all aspects to Gordon Gs guys quite well ..( as a matter of fact, the second CD "My Museum" was recorded this spring in LA and I used a great number of the same guys Gordon does ) Gordons product, while excellent, is much more elaborate than most guys can afford to deal with ( what with the DVDS and publicity ) The production costs are the producers problem and both of mine come in around $30 K each ..actually quite inexpensive compared to pop productions. Still, big band jazz while having a small but fervent following is still basically a "niche music" and doesnt generate
even a return of the production costs in most cases.


As for live appearances, it costs about a minimum of & 4 to 5 K ( plus travel ) to get a band with most of the original personnel . That pretty well limits appearances to regional jazz festivals and local city appearances.

Another big problem ( at least in Seattle) is getting the first team guys for rehearsals because they're all working a lot, and "student" subs for the most part can't play up to level required.

So, all in all I wouldn't plan on a resurgence of the big band ..its only nuts like Gordon, Mike Barone, John LaBarbera, Bob Florence, and I that keep bashing our heads against the trend ..and we sure dont do it for the bread!

[Ron Thorne]

Goody, if you haven't already done so, I'd strongly urge you to pick up copies of Phil's two superb albums, Convergence Zone and My Museum. Then, you could not only hear Phil's fine arranging, but his composing, and production values, along with incredible unison and solo playing as well.



Phil's website is not far away . . . right here on Jazz Corner.

[Gary Sisco]

One of the things that gets forgotten often is that the leader has to pay his band members, working that night or not, and lodging and other expenses, working or not. Rehearsal time, as grayp points out.

Ellington was able to keep a band on salary for so long because of the many bucks he made from composer's royalties. There's no one today who could do that, want to or not.

It's hard enough to keep a regular, working small group together and pay them. That's why there are so few actual working groups on the road.

It's not just in jazz, by the way. The reason most up and coming rock bands and so forth can afford to tour at all is because of label sponsorship. Most of them are employees themselves, on salary (which gets charged against future royalities, along with any other label expenses).

In any case, there's a lot more involved in being a traveling musician than the time actually on stage. The latter is the end result of a hell of a lot of other work, time and expense. Time being money.

It's a very expensive proposition, taking a band on the road today, unless they are willing to live on the road in DIY conditions, which means living in the van and crashing at somebody's place, if you're lucky enough to have that. Most jazz guys are simply not willing to live like that. Can't blame them, really. It's a tough life out on the road.

[John P. Cooper]

Is he article on line and who wrote it?

[Robert de St. Loup]

Originally Posted by Ron Thorne

Goody, if you haven't already done so, I'd strongly urge you to pick up copies of Phil's two superb albums, Convergence Zone and My Museum. Then, you could not only hear Phil's fine arranging, but his composing, and production values, along with incredible unison and solo playing as well.



Phil's website is not far away . . . right here on Jazz Corner.

Hear, hear. These are both terrific records. I even bought a second copy of Convergence Zone to give as a gift, and will probably do the same with My Museum.

[GoodSpeak]

Originally Posted by graypencil

Goodie:

I do more than" arrangements", I also compose and produce the stuff!

Um.

I knew that.


BTW...your Convergence Zone album spends a lot of time on my CD changer [how's that for a comeback.....? ]

Originally Posted by graypencil

Currently ,I have two CDs out and to toot my own horn a bit, I think they hold up in all aspects to Gordon Gs guys quite well ..( as a matter of fact, the second CD "My Museum" was recorded this spring in LA and I used a great number of the same guys Gordon does ) Gordons product, while excellent, is much more elaborate than most guys can afford to deal with ( what with the DVDS and publicity ) The production costs are the producers problem and both of mine come in around $30 K each ..actually quite inexpensive compared to pop productions. Still, big band jazz while having a small but fervent following is still basically a "niche music" and doesnt generate
even a return of the production costs in most cases.


As for live appearances, it costs about a minimum of & 4 to 5 K ( plus travel ) to get a band with most of the original personnel . That pretty well limits appearances to regional jazz festivals and local city appearances.

Another big problem ( at least in Seattle) is getting the first team guys for rehearsals because they're all working a lot, and "student" subs for the most part can't play up to level required.

So, all in all I wouldn't plan on a resurgence of the big band ..its only nuts like Gordon, Mike Barone, John LaBarbera, Bob Florence, and I that keep bashing our heads against the trend ..and we sure dont do it for the bread!

I've seen Bob Florence in concert, as well....and I am always amazed at the quality performances all these guys put on in spite of all the set-up, tear down and travel issues involved.

I always figured big band was expensive just by the sheer weight in numbers of people involved....but 4-5 Grand? Wow!

So I'm guessing to make any kind of money at it you've got to tour and tour some more. True?

[GoodSpeak]

Originally Posted by John P. Cooper

Is the article on line and who wrote it?

Not on the JAZZIZ website but I assume it is available at the local bookstores near you, Coop. I subscribe so I probably get my copy a bit ahead of the public.

Oh and the author was Mark Holston.


BTW Guys...not that it matters, but I wrote a brief recommendation on Amazon.com for Gordon's latest The Phat Pack.

[Mike Schwartz]

Gordon was on the show for the release of the newest CD when it first came out as was Phil for his!

[graypencil]

Originally Posted by GoodSpeak

Um.

I've seen Bob Florence in concert, as well....and I am always amazed at the quality performances all these guys put on in spite of all the set-up, tear down and travel issues involved.

I always figured big band was expensive just by the sheer weight in numbers of people involved....but 4-5 Grand? Wow!

Goody:

I assume you've seen Bobs band somewhere in the LA area .. where the gig is actually a LOCAL gig for the guys. Also, besides the massive professional talent pool in LA, the union there has rehearsal facilities for rent for reasonable prices, AND the LA guys are usually eager to rehearse to keep their chops up ..in case an actually good paying gig comes along. ( like a Rod Stewart standards concert ..barf )

as far as the $4>5K figures go:

( for a 2hr concert plus rehearsal -within,say 150 mi radius of LA or Seattle )

figure 16 guys @ $250 =$3400
addtl. $500 for the lead guys and soloists = $3900

and I'd like to clear something as well ..

call it $600 ..were up to a minimum of $4500 ..

and this doesnt even get BEGIN to get into travel expenses, lodging, food, etc.



oh yeah ..the setup, teardown thing : with a big band you pretty much have to have a "roadie" to do all that stuff ( figure another $200 -add at least $100 more if the guy also does live sound )




band economics 101

[John P. Cooper]

Originally Posted by graypencil

Goody:

I assume you've seen Bobs band somewhere in the LA area .. where the gig is actually a LOCAL gig for the guys. Also, besides the massive professional talent pool in LA, the union there has rehearsal facilities for rent for reasonable prices, AND the LA guys are usually eager to rehearse to keep their chops up ..in case an actually good paying gig comes along. ( like a Rod Stewart standards concert ..barf )

as far as the $4>5K figures go:

( for a 2hr concert plus rehearsal -within,say 150 mi radius of LA or Seattle )

figure 16 guys @ $250 =$3400
addtl. $500 for the lead guys and soloists = $3900

and I'd like to clear something as well ..

call it $600 ..were up to a minimum of $4500 ..

and this doesnt even get BEGIN to get into travel expenses, lodging, food, etc.



oh yeah ..the setup, teardown thing : with a big band you pretty much have to have a "roadie" to do all that stuff ( figure another $200 -add at least $100 more if the guy also does live sound )




band economics 101

And with all due respect, because this is an issue that I have discussed with my musician friends and bandleading friends in the past and they are never happy to hear it - @ 250. a head per night, the guys are being overpaid consiodering the lack of demand for their msuic and band.

yes...they may deserve to earn 250 per night, but the economics don't really permit it and so guys sit at home earning nothing.

Cut your price per man down to 100. dollars or less for a close by gig on an off night......and you open up new avenues for your band/s.

Like I sdaid, you and your men may be worth whatever price your feel you are worth, but if no one is willing or can pay that much, are you truly 'worth' it?

[John P. Cooper]

Originally Posted by GoodSpeak

Not on the JAZZIZ website but I assume it is available at the local bookstores near you, Coop. I subscribe so I probably get my copy a bit ahead of the public.

Oh and the author was Mark Holston.

Tnanx for the info. If I get to a magazine stand and remember I may pick it up.

Don't know Mark Holston, but no matter. I am interested in what he perceives.

[Mike Schwartz]

Originally Posted by John P. Cooper

And with all due respect, because this is an issue that I have discussed with my musician friends and bandleading friends in the past and they are never happy to hear it - @ 250. a head per night, the guys are being overpaid consiodering the lack of demand for their msuic and band.

yes...they may deserve to earn 250 per night, but the economics don't really permit it and so guys sit at home earning nothing.

Cut your price per man down to 100. dollars or less for a close by gig on an off night......and you open up new avenues for your band/s.

Like I sdaid, you and your men may be worth whatever price your feel you are worth, but if no one is willing or can pay that much, are you truly 'worth' it?

Coop;

It'd be very nice for YOU to be entertained by such great musicians at your proposed cut_rate, but let's take that $100 and subtract income tax and driving around L.A. freeways at $2.50-$2.60 a gallon, and so forth & so on....

[Gary Delligatti]

This is really an eye opener, I had no idea but understand the logistics behind it. I guess this means, if you are a big band lover, you need to support your local colleges and universities to get it on a regular basis. I'm fortunate enough to have WVU close by that does support jazz and big bands around

[GoodSpeak]

Originally Posted by graypencil

Goody:

I assume you've seen Bobs band somewhere in the LA area .. where the gig is actually a LOCAL gig for the guys. Also, besides the massive professional talent pool in LA, the union there has rehearsal facilities for rent for reasonable prices, AND the LA guys are usually eager to rehearse to keep their chops up ..in case an actually good paying gig comes along. ( like a Rod Stewart standards concert ..barf )

I saw Bob Florence perform in Mammoth Lakes at the Jazz Jubilee. Another guy, Kim Richmond [who has his own big band, I believe], plays with him in a quintet at that festival. But you're right, the other would be an LA/Local gig, so it makes perfect sense.


Having said that, the guys from all the bands at the Jazz Jubilee usually put on a big band swing performance and they, at will, substitute guys in and out of the big band.

I'm the first to tell you that even with these ears I can hardly notice a difference in quality...then I hear a local [LA] big band like Gordon's. There is a world of difference and amazingly so between a band that sight reads, however good the musicians are, and a band that plays together all of the time, IMHO. There is a quality there you so correctly pointed out that cannot be had any other way.

I would think it must get frustrating to have to rely on subs for your regular guys at a gig.

Originally Posted by graypencil

as far as the $4>5K figures go:

( for a 2hr concert plus rehearsal -within,say 150 mi radius of LA or Seattle )

figure 16 guys @ $250 =$3400
addtl. $500 for the lead guys and soloists = $3900

and I'd like to clear something as well ..

call it $600 ..were up to a minimum of $4500 ..

and this doesnt even get BEGIN to get into travel expenses, lodging, food, etc.



oh yeah ..the setup, teardown thing : with a big band you pretty much have to have a "roadie" to do all that stuff ( figure another $200 -add at least $100 more if the guy also does live sound )




band economics 101

Now that is a chunk of change.


BTW, off the topic, but do you know or have you heard a big band called The Phil Norman Tentet?

[Jimmy Cantiello]

Originally Posted by Mike Schwartz

Coop;

It'd be very nice for YOU to be entertained by such great musicians at your proposed cut_rate, but let's take that $100 and subtract income tax and driving around L.A. freeways at $2.50-$2.60 a gallon, and so forth & so on....

Mike, to be fair, I don't think Mr. Cooper was saying that big band members are not worth being compensated $250.00 per gig. I think he's saying, unfortunately, in this day and age it is not feasible to compensate each member of the band at that rate because of the prohibitive costs of fronting a big band in this economic climate. Of course, you, I and Mr. Cooper would probably disagree with the laws of economics but, that's another story. Sorry if I sound like Gordon B. but..............

[Mike Schwartz]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Cantiello

Mike, to be fair, I don't think Mr. Cooper was saying that big band members are not worth being compensated $250.00 per gig. I think he's saying, unfortunately, in this day and age it is not feasible to compensate each member of the band at that rate because of the prohibitive costs of fronting a big band in this economic climate. Of course, you, I and Mr. Cooper would probably disagree with the laws of economics but, that's another story. Sorry if I sound like Gordon B. but..............

I'm not going there, and I have no problem with the suggestion coming up. I just illustrated how little $100 really is when all things are considered, as we're 11 days from 2007.

[graypencil]

Originally Posted by John P. Cooper

And with all due respect, because this is an issue that I have discussed with my musician friends and bandleading friends in the past and they are never happy to hear it - @ 250. a head per night, the guys are being overpaid consiodering the lack of demand for their msuic and band.

yes...they may deserve to earn 250 per night, but the economics don't really permit it and so guys sit at home earning nothing.

Cut your price per man down to 100. dollars or less for a close by gig on an off night......and you open up new avenues for your band/s.

Like I sdaid, you and your men may be worth whatever price your feel you are worth, but if no one is willing or can pay that much, are you truly 'worth' it?

John :

The figures I quoted are what the A team guys in LA usually get for gigs. ( Sometimes, if it's a concert gig wwith only one set , thy'll come down a bit )

You're right ..I could get lesser known guys to take the gigs ,but then I might not get what I want to hear or present as my work writing wise ..My stuff ( or Bob Florences or Gordon Goodwins ) is *NOT* easy to play and I feel the guys who can play my book deserve it.

Also :

Keep in mind I'm not doing this for a living any longer. ( However, I do try to at least break even on gigs )

It's my "retirement "project and as such, I always insist on the music sounding as good as it can ..whether in LA or up north in Seattle.

[GoodSpeak]

My son just made $50 bucks with his string quartet at a local gig. And though I understand that he is a HS student and that is a lot of money for a kid...$100 bucks for an adult is not, IMHO.

I understand what Coop is driving at and it makes sense; do a "volume" business. What bothers me is the continuing trend of venues not wanting to pay the talent...especially when re-tread rock and roll acts can command tickets prices of $300 bucks a shot.

[graypencil]

Originally Posted by GoodSpeak

BTW, off the topic, but do you know or have you heard a big band called The Phil Norman Tentet?

Yes I have ..they're excellent and the writing is quite good too,

Also, You should check out Mike Barones latest releases ..Mike is an old buddy and one of my favorite straight ahead writers ..( us old farts gotta stick together ..and for that matter, Bob Florence is only 5 years older than moi! )

[Mike Schwartz]

Originally Posted by GoodSpeak

My son just made $50 bucks with his string quartet at a local gig. And though I understand that he is a HS student and that is a lot of money for a kid...$100 bucks for an adult is not, IMHO.

I understand what Coop is driving at and it makes sense; do a "volume" business. What bothers me is the continuing trend of venues not wanting to pay the talent...especially when re-tread rock and roll acts can command tickets prices of $300 bucks a shot.

Fasten your seat belts..........there are clubs that have a "pay to play" policy; quite a bit of that going on in L.A. across a wide variety of musical fronts. Musicians that want to gig at a venue and attract an audience pony up for using the space.

[John P. Cooper]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Cantiello

Mike, to be fair, I don't think Mr. Cooper was saying that big band members are not worth being compensated $250.00 per gig. I think he's saying, unfortunately, in this day and age it is not feasible to compensate each member of the band at that rate because of the prohibitive costs of fronting a big band in this economic climate. Of course, you, I and Mr. Cooper would probably disagree with the laws of economics but, that's another story. Sorry if I sound like Gordon B. but..............

Thank you for saving me the typing.

And, of course, the other question a musician has to ask himself is would he rather sit at home making nothing or would he rather take home 100 bucks?

[John P. Cooper]

Originally Posted by Mike Schwartz

I'm not going there, and I have no problem with the suggestion coming up. I just illustrated how little $100 really is when all things are considered, as we're 11 days from 2007.

100 bucks for a 3 hour gig is 33 bucks an hour. Not bad pay. 15 bucks an hour is nice pay, too....which is why there are guys gigging for 50 bucks a night...professional musicians who have made a decision to work.

[John P. Cooper]

Originally Posted by GoodSpeak

My son just made $50 bucks with his string quartet at a local gig. And though I understand that he is a HS student and that is a lot of money for a kid...$100 bucks for an adult is not, IMHO.

I understand what Coop is driving at and it makes sense; do a "volume" business. What bothers me is the continuing trend of venues not wanting to pay the talent...especially when re-tread rock and roll acts can command tickets prices of $300 bucks a shot.

I'd be happy to make 25 or 33 bucks an hour for a evening's work.

Don't blame the venues. They will pay the 'big bucks' if there is an audience to pay them back....and with many Jazz and big bands...there is not.

[John P. Cooper]

Originally Posted by graypencil

John :

The figures I quoted are what the A team guys in LA usually get for gigs. ( Sometimes, if it's a concert gig wwith only one set , they'll come down a bit )

You're right ..I could get lesser known guys to take the gigs ,but then I might not get what I want to hear or present as my work writing wise ..My stuff ( or Bob Florences or Gordon Goodwins ) is *NOT* easy to play and I feel the guys who can play my book deserve it.

I understand what you are saying as I have had this discussion before.

What your guys "deserve" is one issue. What they can get and continue to work is another.

If if is not an issue to you if you are making a living from this, than I suppose that you can pay your guys whatever you feel is 'proper'.

If you were doing this for a living and needed to work and to keep your ban in the public's eye, you might be taking another path in order to do the do.

[Ron Thorne]

Originally Posted by John P. Cooper

And, of course, the other question a musician has to ask himself is would he rather sit at home making nothing or would he rather take home 100 bucks?

As a musician myself, I'd say that's a loaded question.

• Are you destitute?
• Do you have a daytime gig?
• Do you enjoy playing with the musicians in question?
• Where's the gig and what are the expectations?
• Is compensation not as important as "playing the music"?

Obviously, there are other issues, too, such as the Musician's Union minimum hourly rates, etc.

I can say that I don't know of any active musician in Anchorage worthy of hearing who will happily leave his/her home for a "casual" gig for less than $100.00, considerably more during the holidays. That gig can range from 2-4 hours, so the hourly rate of pay varies, obviously.

While I agree that far too many musicians are not being given the proper opportunity, let alone wages, I agree with Phil Kelly's (graypencil's) assessment for his projects. He wanted "A" level players who could roll in, read and master his charts, and render a performance worthy of recording.

Given the performance levels I've heard on both of Phil's albums, I suspect that he'll agree that those musicians weren't overpaid. It's a balancing act, with other production, housing, food and other costs, of course.

[Pete C]

Hey Phil, you really ought to correct the typos in your signature. When it's wrong once it's wrong every time.