If you Were Wondering Why James Taylor's Voice Sounded so Bad on the Oscars...

Jazzooo · February-25th-2007, 10:42 PM

it is a phenomenom called AUTOTUNE, and it can be a helpful tool for bad singers like Britney Spears, reigning in out of tune notes and forcing them to a pre-determined pitch. it is also a helpful tool in the studio for saving killer performances when, for one reason or another, the artist is not available to fix a sour note.

I've used it on about 10 notes in the past 6 years, and I don't like it at all. And it is showing up more and more--if you listen to contemporary country, it is all over that stuff. And now idiot sound men are applying it liberally to live performers. The untrained ear can't really pick it out, but it adds a robotic sheen that is very noticeable and phony to me.

And when you have a singer who might take a second to get to the 'right' pitch--which is part of what determines their style, imo--it is atrocious. Billy Joel always sings a little flat--it's never held him back, of course. But when he performed the STAR Spangled Banner at the Superbowl, they tried to clamp his voice down with Autotune and it forced his borderline intonation towards several wrong notes, plain and simple. You can hear it grappling with the pitch he was aiming for, and the one it decided weas correct. Disgusting.

Even more pathetic was tonight's example: James Taylor singing with randy Newman. Taylor does not have intonation problems--I've seen him live and I know the difference. He might not be your favorite artist, but even his detractors can admit that the guy can sing in tune. But they had this crappy effect on him tonight which actually made him sound untalented.

The shocking thing was that he obviously didn't know until about halfway through...at which point, he heard it in the monitor and the look on his face was horrible. I know what it's like to be up there performing, thinking the audience is hearing what you're putting out, only to realize that some passive aggressive sound guy is asleep at the switch and hasn't turned your mic on in the house feed--so you look like an idiot.

I wouldn't bother, but I want more people to know about AUTOTUNE and how it gets abused.

GoodSpeak · February-25th-2007, 10:53 PM

OK...so that's why Billy Joel sounded so bad at the Stupor Bowl.

Makes perfect sense, Doug...thanks!

moneyp · February-26th-2007, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoodSpeak

OK...so that's why Billy Joel sounded so bad at the Stupor Bowl.

I thought it was just because he sucks. But thanks to Doug's trained ear, we can distinguish between the levels of him sucking.

Scott Dolan · February-26th-2007, 12:58 AM

It's like that Cher tune where her pitch is going bonkers.

I expect better of both Mr. Taylor, and Mr. Joel...

Jazzooo · February-26th-2007, 01:13 AM

I don't know about Joel, but do NOT blame James Taylor for this. He's just a performer, and I would bet $100 right now that this was not his call--like i said, there was a moment when I saw him react to the sound in his monitors--he looked shocked and pissed, and then put his smile back on and finished the tune like the pro he is.

Imagine some special effects guy digitally removing Robert Deniro's mole to make him look 'better.' Now imagine it could be done in real time, when he's up there on stage delivering a line. Digusting.

Hudson Boy · February-26th-2007, 01:41 AM

PBS had a show called Black and White Night, featuring Roy Orbison, filmed in the late 1980's. In his prime, Orbison had a three octive range. His vocals on that video just seemed "sweetened", or something. Could this have been an early use of AUTOTUNE, or perhaps fixed up later for the video release? If that performance was all in his own voice, in 1988, I'm impressed.

Gary Sisco · February-26th-2007, 07:26 AM

I'd be pretty pissed off it were used without my consent or knowledge. I've read about it but would never allow it. Studio or stage, I want the microphone and sound system used only for amplification and nothing else. No effects, no nada. In a studio, if I couldn't get it (it's never happened yet when I couldn't hit a note), it would become an outtake. Period.

steve(thelil) · February-26th-2007, 08:39 AM

The fact that the song was very lame and boring didn't help James any.

Dr Dave · February-26th-2007, 09:02 AM

The fact that there is a knob on this infernal device labeled "humanize" is some very sick shit.

Gary Sisco · February-26th-2007, 09:52 AM

Really sick. I won't use reverb, even, never mind this crap. First of all, how does one of these clowns know if you're headed for a "wrong" pitch on purpose? Second, in my experience in recent decades, sound guys are challenged enough by the sound system alone, never mind adding this kind of shit. I'm so glad to be entirely away from pop culture. And I never sing a song the same way twice, which would complicate matters further.

Let the singer sing. If the singer can't sing, it's a tough life all over. Get a job.

Chris D · February-26th-2007, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hudson Boy

PBS had a show called Black and White Night, featuring Roy Orbison, filmed in the late 1980's. In his prime, Orbison had a three octive range. His vocals on that video just seemed "sweetened", or something. Could this have been an early use of AUTOTUNE, or perhaps fixed up later for the video release? If that performance was all in his own voice, in 1988, I'm impressed.

Pretty sure that was all Roy. That was before ProTools and Autotune.

Gary Sisco · February-26th-2007, 10:30 AM

A friend's record that came out this year used on one song where there was an impossible note for him to hit, doing some vocal "oooos," and the engineer brought his voice up to pitch. Thing is, Frankie Valli as a eunoch couldn't have hit that note.

He told me about the technology.

My response was, Find a different key where you can hit the note and record it again.

Dan G · February-26th-2007, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve(thelil)

The fact that the song was very lame and boring didn't help James any.

Nothing could have helped that song. Newman hasn't written a good song since about 1974, but for some reason he keeps getting academy award nominations for this kind of shit.

Root Doctor · February-26th-2007, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve(thelil)

The fact that the song was very lame and boring didn't help James any.

I thought being lame and boring was Taylor's function in life.

Dan G · February-26th-2007, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Root Doctor

I thought being lame and boring was Taylor's function in life.

Quite true, but if there's even a spark of life there, Newman could suck it out of even the most mundane performer.

Noj · February-26th-2007, 11:29 AM

Jazzooo · February-26th-2007, 12:17 PM

Lol, Noj.

"Nothing could have helped that song. Newman hasn't written a good song since about 1974..."

I agree with the first part, but the second part is dead wrong. Newman's last three albums have been as strong as his best work from the early '70s. his movie songs don't really reflect how strong a writer he is.

Here's when Autotune makes sense to me personally. let's say you're a writer/producer who loves his wife. His wife can really sing--beautiful voice--but doesn't sing on a daily basis because it's really only a hobby for her. Still, the producer loves his wife and the way she sings a particular song, and he coaxes her into the studio to lay down a simple part on one of his tracks. These kinds of sessions, let's say, are often highly charged with emotion, because the wife wants to please the producer, but feels intimidated by the gear, the challenge and perhaps on a musical level, by the producer himself. Perhaps there are even tears once in a while. At the end of the day, though, the producer has a lovely performance from his favorite amateur singer that doesn't sound amateurish at all. Except for the tail end of one difficult note, where the wife might have trailed off as it was dying out.

The producer tries a lot of things--fading the note out early, dropping it altogether, layering another instrument on top (which only makes the intonation sound worse). He brings her back in, but the note is right at the cracking point of her range and the results are about the same after a half dozen takes. So he turns on his pitch correcdtion and uses it on the last 2 seconds of a note as it is fading out. Done correctly, it is not noticeable--what you hear is the song, without the distraction of an out of tune note (cool for many types of music, but let's say not for all). Everything on that performance is her, unprocessed, unvarnished, uncorrected, except for that last note. He tells the wife what he did and she thanks him and says she understands, and they have sex.

you know, hypothetically. Philosophically, i'm against even that kind of useage, but I can imagine a situation where it's worth it.

moneyp · February-26th-2007, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Dave

The fact that there is a knob on this infernal device labeled "humanize" is some very sick shit.

We need to get that knob for people.

You at least have to appreciate that it's set to a Spinal Tap-ian 11.

Dr Dave · February-26th-2007, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary Sisco

I won't use reverb, even, never mind this crap.

Now HOLD ON A MINUTE!

jesus marion joseph · February-26th-2007, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moneyp

You at least have to appreciate that it's set to a Spinal Tap-ian 11.

clinthopson · February-28th-2007, 11:51 AM

He's always sounded bad to me, maybe not as bad as Dylan but bad anyway.

walto · February-28th-2007, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzzoo

Taylor does not have intonation problems

I've heard James Taylor sing pretty badly out of tune on televised concerts on several occasions (Paul Simon is an even worse offender), but I take it you're suggesting that in Taylor's case it may actually have been some electronic device that's supposed to put what comes out of the speakers in tune when he sings out of tune, that is actually making him sound as if he has pitch problems? That's pretty paradoxical. I like both James Taylor and Paul Simon pretty well, but I think their senses of pitch are weak--that's probably why AUTOTUNE was used with Taylor in the first place.

BTW, I completely disagree that Randy Newman hasn't written any good songs since the 1970s. I think (just to give a couple of examples) that several of the songs in James and the Giant Peach are quite good, and I love that weepy song in Toy Story II that should have won an Oscar when that Celine Deon screechfest for Titanic did. Newman's a phenomenal songwriter, and a very good film music composer generally, IMHO.

Jazzooo · March-1st-2007, 03:33 AM

"I like both James Taylor and Paul Simon pretty well, but I think their senses of pitch are weak--that's probably why AUTOTUNE was used with Taylor in the first place."

I'm sorry to disagree, Walt, but this is dead wrong. It is merely a sign of the times that producers and sound guys apply this crap to so many vocalists in live settings, not to mention recordings. Think of it as breast implants--are they really being done so frequently because the women are unattractive? of course not--it's just a certain segment's intolerence of what they perceive as imperfection. They'd autotune ornette if they had the chance.

Glad to see you mention some of newman's better film songs, but doesn't anyone else here buy his albums? His political humor has never been sharper, and his cultural commentary is as insightful as ever.

Jazzooo · March-1st-2007, 03:37 AM

"I take it you're suggesting that in Taylor's case it may actually have been some electronic device that's supposed to put what comes out of the speakers in tune when he sings out of tune, that is actually making him sound as if he has pitch problems? That's pretty paradoxical."

Sorry, i meant to respond to this comment as well. yes, it's paradoxical and 100% accurate. We all have this tool, or some version of it, in our studios--at least anyone who records for a living has it. you mght disagree with it philosophically, but used surgically it can make the client happy. From what in hear from my recording colleagues, there are actually debates about whether it is unethical to apply to a client's voice without telling them about it. There is, of course, a parellel deabte about whether using it at all is unethical, but it has not gathered much steam.

What i heard on the Oscars was not a singer hitting a few bad notes--it was a mechanical processor who thinks it knows better than a human what an "A flat' really means.