JC vs. "reality".

[Scott Dolan]

This is a response to a post from Lenny D. Guitarist that I thought was worthy of its own thread.

My apologies if I was mistaken. But I'd appreciate the feedback.

Originally Posted by Lenny D.Guitarist

Mr. Dolan,
This ain't the stuff of your real life, or it shouldn't be. In the final analysis, just a bunch of pixels being used to convey some thoughts, ideas, suggestions. Have a good weekend.

You have a nice weekend too, my friend.

As far as this being part of my real life, of course it is. It's part of all our real lives. With very few exceptions, most posters here portray their "real life" self here on a daily basis. And we all know, and care, about each other in a very real way.

Examples:

1. When Brother Goodz had his cancer scare many years ago, it affected most of us here in very real ways. We felt sympathy and compassion in very real ways. Even those who don't particularly care for his "online persona" expressed genuine concern.

2. When Rita had her health issues last year, most here were genuinely worried about her, and many actually contacted her by phone to express their concerns and well wishes. I was very worried about her as well, and Rita is not a particular fan of mine. Either way, she still feels like a family member to me, and I asked others to convey my own regards to her.

3. When Ron announced that someone amongst us was doing quite badly, the very first thing I did was e-mail Ron and ask him to send my very best wishes to this family member of ours. I later found out it was SinginSumo who died shortly thereafter. SinginSumo and I truly hated each other here, but my regards were sincere. Whether we got along didn't matter. Some things transcend petty horseshit. And when he died, there was a great outpouring from everyone here, especially for Ron because he and Sumo had been very good friends. And, IIRC, they never even met in person.

4. When my wife, Kelly, was going through some very troubling health issues (which she completely recovered from, thankfully) folks here expressed their concern and sympathy. Even those who don't find me very palatable.

The list could go on and on. But those are moments I can quickly recall.

Why did all of these things take place? Because this is real. And so are we. Pixels on a screen? Sure. But what about an e-mail you receive from a friend, or a relative? They are pixels on a screen as well. Does that make them less than "real"? Of course not.

Why do we get together "offline"? Because we've discovered kindred spirits, whatever that means.

Birders like to call it a "life list". All the birds they've actually experienced in person.

Well, my JC life list goes something like this (in actual order):

Dr. Dave (Finch)
Brother Schau
Cappz
Walto
GG
BoTrix
jmmotherfuckingJ!!

You know what they all have in common, Lenny? They all kick serious ass, and are simply wonderful people.

And how did I know this ahead of time? Because of our interactions here. Very real stuff, indeed.

Do I wish I could start all over here again? Nah. I made my bed, and I'll sleep in it with many regrets. I'd be willing to bet that many here who hate me would make for good friends had we met in person. And like GG, would come away with a much better understanding of who I am, and what I really intend. He has already stated here that he had major reservations about me, but they were all wiped away once we met in person.

Look at this however you like, Mr. Guitarist. But it's as real as anything else that happens in your world.

[kenny weir]

Interesting thread idea.

That fuckin Pacific Ocean, comin' between me Dolan's list!

Maybe I'll add more (I'm supposed to be working), but in the meantime ...

With very few exceptions, most posters here portray their "real life" self here on a daily basis.

The one change I would make to this is the following (my caps added):

With very few exceptions, most posters here portray WHAT THEY THINK OF AS their "real life" self here on a daily basis.

That is, the "self" we present online is almost totally bereft of the mediating influence and "real-ness" of spouses, colleagues, eye-to-eye contact, body language and all that other stuff that makes us all so human and messy.

[GoodSpeak]

Right freakin' on, Brother Dolan.


Real people, real life.

[crawjo]

All I know is that whenever I'm sitting here at my computer typing up a post, that is what I'm "really" doing. If the argument is that online behavior is more "performance" and less "genuine," I'd say that this is a false distinction, in that performance is genuine.

To add to Scott's list, many people expressed their support for me and my family two years ago when my daughter had brain surgery, for which I remain grateful. (She's falling asleep to Fantasia right now as I'm typing this.)

[kenny weir]

Originally Posted by crawjo

If the argument is that online behavior is more "performance" and less "genuine," I'd say that this is a false distinction, in that performance is genuine.

I feel it's not more or less, good or bad, but simply different.

[Scott Dolan]

Originally Posted by crawjo

All I know is that whenever I'm sitting here at my computer typing up a post, that is what I'm "really" doing. If the argument is that online behavior is more "performance" and less "genuine," I'd say that this is a false distinction, in that performance is genuine.

To add to Scott's list, many people expressed their support for me and my family two years ago when my daughter had brain surgery, for which I remain grateful. (She's falling asleep to Fantasia right now as I'm typing this.)

Yet another fine example.

Crawjo, I apologize. I didn't remember this one off the top of my head.

[Dr Dave]

Scott's right.

I have long been a proponent of "it's only pixels on a screen," but his examples prove that while this may be true in the early days of an on-line community, it gradually stops being true. Somehow, over the last decade (back to the JCS days) many of us have gotten to "know" each other.

[Gary Sisco]

Apart from being better looking online, I'm the same way in person that I am here, only more fun and I laugh a lot more in person. The only othing I'm stern about, really, is politics. For the rest, I'm ready for a pint, some smoke, some good music, and entertaining talk.

Argument to me, however, is a form of entertainment. I realize it isn't for many others, which is fine for them. For me, life without it would be a bore. More, I'd consider it not even human, really. So, I entertain myself.

[tippy]

yeah Popeye was good with himself, he was saving people from bullies. Anyone can say I y'am what I y'am: Oprah, God, the Pope, Ghandi, Mother Teresa, door openers, my landlord, Ted Kennedy, Ted Bundi, Jeffrey Dahmer, Osama bin Laden, Hitler and Stalin

[Vince Kargatis]

My persona here is pretty accurate, except that I'm less humorless in person.

[tippy]

I attempt to display more maturity here than in real life.

[Jimmy Cantiello]

Originally Posted by Vince Kargatis

My persona here is pretty accurate, except that I'm less humorless in person.

That's not possible.

[steve(thelil)]

I'm equally annoying in real life.

[Paul B]

Thelil hates me here, but maybe he'd change his mind over the reality of a beer.

Nice thread Scott, and on the mark I'd say, at least for JC. It may be less true at other types of forum on the vast Web, where various levels of "reality" exist--and can lead to trouble.

[patricia]

I've been posting on JC for a few years now and am always interested in just how the various posters have fleshed out over that time.
Although I know that there have been some who have constructed entire, fictional personas, few have managed to maintain one which is totally alien to who they really are.
Much as it's nearly impossible to be a really good liar, because nobody's memory is perfect, so too it's nearly impossible to maintain a persona here that is not really you.
It's so much easier to just be who we are and let the chips fall where they may.
What's missing for all of us are the subtle signs that are always there when we are involved in conversations with our friends in the real world. Our friends can see by our facial expression and by our body language whether what we are saying jibes with what we really mean.
Otherwise, over time, I think that we have a fairly clear idea of who we all are.
I'm much too lazy to concoct a whole different me.
One thing that I would like to say though is that I am much taller than I appear in print.

[sonic1]

I believe this digital expression is just an extension of real life, but it does lack a lot-I personally believe more confusion than connection happens here because we lack the chemistry exchange, and other exchanges non-verbal that are not possible through the computers we use.

I personally think that stuff plays a huge major role in interpersonal relations, and this digital communication, if taking over our lives, is doing us a great disservice because it lessens our exposure and thus development to the non-verbal, chemistry of interpersonal relations.

I also think there is much more of a lack of responsibility and culpability online for what people say, myself included. That can be good and bad-it might be that something you might NEVER have said to someone in person, you have less stopping you online. That can be good and bad.

But i digress. Yes, this is reality, but screened of its pulp.

[Gary Sisco]

True enough but it's always been the case when people communicated over distance. There's nothing new about that.

[sonic1]

Originally Posted by Gary Sisco

True enough but it's always been the case when people communicated over distance. There's nothing new about that.

Yes there is. Prior to now, you probably would have at least once met the person, and thus have something to go on-memory of chemistry is better than none at all.

[Vince Kargatis]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Cantiello

That's not possible.

Either I don't get your joke, or you misunderstand the phrase "less humorless".

[Enforcer]

Originally Posted by Vince Kargatis

Either I don't get your joke, or you misunderstand the phrase "less humorless".

'

Either way, this is pretty funny, eh, Vince?

[Gary Sisco]

Not at all necessarily, Sonic. The American Revolution was driven mainly through correspondence. In fact, their first real attempt to create an organization was called the Committees of Correspondence.

Nothing much would get done if real communication could take place in person only.

Have you never had a pen pal you've never actually met face to face? I have. Still do.

[Gentle Giant]

I'm probably a titch less inhibited online, quite a bit more shy face to face. Other than that, I make a real effort to be sincere, whether I'm talking music, religion, politics, or boners. I've shared stuff here that many of my real-world friends don't know about me.

And it's true, I used to hate Scott as much as the next guy, but when I met him, aside from being completely intimidated and wondering if he'd just broken out of Walpole, I found that he was and wasn't what I thought he was. Honest and blunt he is, but face to face you can see the smile, the gleam in the eyes, you have more colors and shadings with which to build your interpretation. Let's face it, real world is analog and it's much more accurate than the on-off/yes-no/good-evil/black-white binary digital world. When Scott came double-fisting a pair of Johnnie Blacks to the table where Walt, the Trickster, and I were sitting, I instantly thought, "Yeah, I can hang with this guy."

You can't get that from people online and more importantly, you can't convey that about yourself online, whether you're me, Scott, or Harris. People only see a slice of who you really are. For example, I'm obsessed with patricia's feet, but I'm sure if I met her in person, I'd become obsessed with all of her.

In summation, I love JC, but I'll take reality any day of the week.

[BayviewSax]

Originally Posted by Gentle Giant

I'm probably a titch less inhibited online, quite a bit more shy face to face. Other than that, I make a real effort to be sincere, whether I'm talking music, religion, politics, or boners. I've shared stuff here that many of my real-world friends don't know about me.

This is the biggest thing, I think. You can type something you simply wouldn't feel comfortable saying directly to someone. However, if you raise this point, people generally take it as a challenge; that you're saying they wouldn't dare. It's got nothing to do with that. Very few of us are just as obnoxious in person. I like to think that I am one of those few, but at the same time, meeting me face-to-face is a very different experience because you gain perspective on the delivery. Emoticons (particularly those available at JC) are woefully inadequate in this regard.

[Vince Kargatis]

Originally Posted by Larry Nagel

Either way, this is pretty funny, eh, Vince?

That one was, at least, deliberate.

[Gary Sisco]

Yeah but most people see only a slice of us anyway, even in person.

I had a friend once whose wife had never known that he'd fought in Vietnam until they were well on into their 30s, raising kids and the whole nine yards, until IBM gave him a choice of getting treatment to get him off the booze or lose his job. Now that's a lot of self to keep to yourself, right there. And it's definitely real enough if we want to talk real.

What's missing mainly online is body language and tone of voice.

But few people reveal themselves fully to others, regardless. Everyone has things that are held back and also sides to them that other people just aren't interested in. It's possible to have music buddies, for example, even face to face, who aren't friends in deeper terms. Possible also to have them that are, of course. Friends "at work" is another example.

There is always some form of mediation between the "real" self and the rest of the world and likely always has been.

Nevertheless, people communicated really and deeply for centuries via correspondence and before that via "runners" or so on and so forth.

People always have had to deal with others from a distance and they managed alright from what I can see.

One difference with this medium is speed, however. I used to write a lot of letters, but I had a policy at the time, esp if angry or upset, to hang fire on mailing them for a few days. If I still wanted to mail it, then, I did. Lots of times, however, I'd decide not to and trash it.

The biggest problem with this medium is the too-easy "send" button.

[Scott Dolan]

Originally Posted by GG

When Scott came double-fisting a pair of Johnnie Blacks to the table where Walt, the Trickster, and I were sitting, I instantly thought, "Yeah, I can hang with this guy."

Hahahahahaha......

[Scott Dolan]

Originally Posted by Gary

The biggest problem with this medium is the too-easy "send" button.

Absolutely, Gary.

Likely the most profound thing that will be said in this thread.

[BayviewSax]

Originally Posted by Gary Sisco

The biggest problem with this medium is the too-easy "send" button.

True. A situation which is exacerbated when the reader doesn't read the post that sets them off carefully enough.

[Dennis Gonzalez]

I'm pretty much the same in the real world as I present myself here at JC. I hate confrontation and I'm really overly sensitive to negative remarks sent in my direction, which led to my refusing to communicate with Scott for a long time, even though he is one of my biggest supporters musically. Maybe this is a handshake of peace with Dolan after a long time. I know I have way too much pride, but that's the way I'm is.

And then, in rare instances when I go on the attack, like I did with Crawjo a few weeks back, people (Crawjo specifically) are decent and don't chastise me for my un-well-though-out slams. So an olive branch to him.

I do wish that people were as active in the jazz threads as they are in the political threads, and it does seem that the situation is slowly balancing itself out.

I was coming back from my hiatus in jazz a few years ago, and truly thought my career should just fizzle out, when along comes this beautiful bunch of people who decided to be my supporters, fans, and eventually - to my delight - friends. Not only do you listen to my music and give me support that way; a bunch of you even set up concerts for me and put me up for the night when the gig paid little or when the project was being paid from my own pocket. Some of you hooked me up with someone who could help and introduced me to some of my hero-musicians, which led to a deepening of the music. Which is what we're all looking for, isn't it?

I'm one of the lucky ones here.

[Scott Dolan]

I'm pretty much the same in the real world as I present myself here at JC. I hate confrontation and I'm really overly sensitive to negative remarks sent in my direction, which led to my refusing to communicate with Scott for a long time, even though he is one of my biggest supporters musically. Maybe this is a handshake of peace with Dolan after a long time. I know I have way too much pride, but that's the way I'm is.

And I gladly offer my hand in return, Master Gonzalez.

The worst part about that whole thing is that I didn't mean what I said to come across the way it did. It wasn't meant to be offensive, but you took it that way. And fuck if I going to apologize, I'm real hardcore about that type of thing. I spent sop much of my late teens, early 20's, apologizing to everyone for all the douchebaggery I had wrought that I finally got to a point of exhaustion. And now I only apologize for something that I truly see as wrong. Kinda similar to the situation with Finch where he took a joke of mine the wrong way. I suppose an ordinary person would have apologized simply to smooth things over. I don't think anyone here would argue that I'm an ordinary person.

It did really suck from my side though. Everytime I walk into my music room, there were you and your boys staring me in the face.

And now I see that while we were not on speaking terms a new YAE disc came out?! I shall e-mail this evening, my friend. I needs my fix!!!