Parents--What Are They Good For?

[RainyDay]

We've been having SERIOUS problems with juveniles on our street for a while and it has steadily worsened over time. I live in a neighborhood that is pretty dicey. Many unsupervised, totally out of control kids. Fortunately, they don't sell drugs, just destructive, loud and disrespectful. Aren't we lucky? But some have been accused of some pretty serious stuff but they are like teflon.

Then tonight, my next door neighbor's kid was busted for going over to Alameda, beating up a kid and stealing his bike. The swat team showed up to arrest him. He acted with another kid on the block. Alameda doesn't have a lot of crime so if you screw up over there, the cops have nothing else to do but catch your sorry butt.

My next door neighbor's parents are useless. Last month, we had a big neighborhood meeting that included some police brass. The complaints were many. The dad of the kid next door came to the meeting and was in denial the entire time. When one neighbor saw this kid come in the door and then leave during the meeting, she asked his dad is that your son? When he said yes, she gave him an earful. The dad said it didn't sound like his son and she must be mistaken. She said if that was his son, there was no mistake, He refused to believe his kid is doing anything wrong.

But at least the dad came to the meeting. Only two parents showed up. A third came long enough to make a fool of herself then leave. The other parents stayed away.

With all the problems, you never see parents out here supervising their kids. They are the LAST fucking idiots to know what their kids are doing. They don't take responsibility for what their kids do and they deny, deny, deny. You wouldn't believe what's been going on around here.

The only thing I agree with Dr. Laura about is also what Dr. Phil preaches: If you have kids. everything else in your life is secondary. It's a big job and it's a 24/7 job. It's your job to teach your children there are limits on their behavior and there are consequences for their behavior. It's parents responsibility to see that homework is done, that kids don't skip school, don't stay out until all hours, to look out the window at least once a week to see if their kid is vandalizing the neighbhors' car/house/whatever. Hell, it's your job to teach them everything they need!

These kids are set up to fail and most of them will probably end up in jail, or dead. It's too fucking bad their parents can't serve the time along with the kids. Sorry to be so profane but I am equal parts disgusted, angry and sad.

This kid next door started out as a nice respectful kid. His checked out parents are paying the price now for being totally asleep at the wheel and for letting him hang with the worst kids on the street. It's ironic, too, 'cos this kid comes from a two-parent family that takes family vacations. They're no Ozzie and Harriet but he has more advantages than others in this block. Of course, the other kids just haven't been caught yet. But this kid didn't have to turn out like this. I would dearly like to kick his old man's ass from now until next Christmas then bludgeon him with a baseball bat. This kid didn't have to turn out like this. Stupid, godammed parents.

[GoodSpeak]

Um.

Not to be disrepectful...but are you a parent?


I see a lot of what my wife and I call, "non-parenting" in my biz. So I fully appreciate what you are saying, but unless you are a parent, you cannot imagine the stress involved in raising kids...hell, try a teenager.

In the City, its even worse.

I agree with you, parents should be the first folks to know what's going on in their own kid's world. I just think the symtoms are far more complex than a sound byte from Dr. Laura or Dr. Phil [both trying to sell air time] could ever possibly reflect.

[Ron Thorne]

Sorry, Rainy, but you lost me completely when you invoked the names of Dr. Laura and Dr. Phil for meaningful insight, even within a limited context. I'm sorry, but both of them are "entertainers" with a simplistic approach to virtually everything, humongous budgets, and egos to match.

I empathize with what you're dealing with in your neighborhood, however.

[RainyDay]

I'm not a parent and that doesn't mean squat. I've watched friends and family raise their kids and you can just about predict which kids will crash and burn and which ones go on to be responsible adults. Occasionally, there's a child who comes into the world troubled and is always challenged and is challenging. But the kids who turned out really bad didn't have much parental support of any kind. One cousin was killed in a drug deal and another disappeared at age 17 while hooking. It was no surprise what happened to either child. Heartbreaking as hell but not out of the realm of possibility. Another cousin is on her way to medical school and another cousin has a promising computer career ahead of him. That's no surprise either. The real surprises are the kids who didn't get the support they needed and whose lives worked out well anyway.

Parenting ISN'T a 24/7 job? Well, my friends and family who have struggled to raise responsible kids to adulthood keep telling me it is. And it also means tremendous sacrifice. Not for material things but to impart life lessons. They tell me it's very hard work.

Dr. Phil is an entertainer who knows more about parenting than a lot of the people who live on my street. If the only parenting lessons they ever get is from him, it'll be a damn sight more than what they have know. When a woman tells you that her son likes to get in people's faces because he's really handsome and she doesn't have a problem with that, you are dealing with someone for whom clueless is a gross understatement. Yes, what she said is a non sequitur and she is raising a child.

There are a lot of people who should have never had children. Who were children when they had kids. Who are so damaged themselves they cannot adequately care for another human being. I suspect from the safety of most of the middle class experiences on this board, there probably isn't a lof of understanding for what I'm talking about.

The problems in my neighborhood are replicated all over Oakand. The police will tell you in a heart beat that we have a serious parentling problem in this town. Parents will blame peers, racism, profiling, all kinds of bullshit but blame themselves. A 14-year old child lost a leg at 1 AM in something here called the sideshow. His mother went on TV and blamed the cops and the city. No matter that her 14-year old was participating in the assault of another human being at 1 AM. It was not her fault.

And I wasn't looking for sympathy. This tragedy isn't mine. My life is fine. It's this kid next door, and all the other kids like him, who are on their way to hell. It's a real tragedy.

[Ron Thorne]

Rainy Day-

Sorry if I confused the issue, but I was only attempting to allude to the two entertainers you mentioned ... Dr. Laura and Dr. Phil, not your particular circumstance.

Yes, parenting is a fulltime job, without question. However, if you've done your job relatively well, you'll always be your child's parent, while it's wonderful to watch your children flourish on their own.

[Jimmy Cantiello]

Wow, Rainy has really hit a nerve with me. I can't argue with anything she's said. Couldn't agree with her more.

The total lack of parental responsibility nowadays is astounding. You need a license to get married but any idiot can become a parent. And most of them do......................

[Pete C]

Dr. Laura's not an entertainer; she's a witch.

[jazzy mary]

First of all, I really like your new avatar, Rainy. I can't recall the exact title of that painting, although I've seen the real thing, would you please post the details? Thanks.

In re: parenting. Man is it TOUGH!! And I have 2 of the sweetest, most wonderful girls on earth. Please see "The Shameless Brag about your Kids thread". And it is still tough as hell.

It is a 24 hr. job, unfortunately corporate America HAS NO UNDERSTANDING OR CONCERN FOR PARENTS AT ALL! My job is unbelievably demanding and my work doesn't give a flying f*%k about my duties toward my family. I'm constantly stressed out trying to juggle it all. For ex., I just called Liz's guitar teacher to see if she has a lesson today--she doesn't, I called her to tell her, we talked about the music she's listening to in the background "Red Hot Chili Peppers:Freaky Style" which she says is REALLY GOOD!! Btw, my younger, Liz, also plays acoustic and electric guitar and can play all the songs on "By the Way" by the Red Hot Chili Peppers (that is SUCH a great album!) and her current fave--"When I Come Around" by Green Day. Anyways, I digress. But my point is, I'm doing all that, answering the phone here, figuring out what I need to do today with this hearing, I'll be out of town almost all of next week, posting (of course) and all at the same time. But, hey, I'm a master at multi-tasking, as most moms are.

My kids, aside from being terrifically smart-alecky disrespectful to their mom ,13 and 9 year olds, are great. I'm lucky. I also think I'm a good parent. What do they see at home, when I'm not working like a dog to buy them things, with me? Reading, listening to all kinds of wonderful music (no wonder they are so talented), trying not to scream at them too much, shopping, cleaning, figuring out what ballets we should see etc, screaming at them. I really want to cool out on screaming at them. They are so rude to me though. If I spoke to my mom they way they speak to me.............

Anyways, just to say it is so tough--and today is a good day! I don't know what I would do if they had discipline problems, were ill in some way or didn't do well in school. I'm very lucky that they are so healthy, beautiful and smart. I just wish I could be home more and that things were a better situation at home.

[RainyDay]

JM: It's a Rainy Day in Paris by Gustav Caillebotte. Had a chance to see the original years ago and it is very nice. I have a reproduction somwhere at home. You must be a good parent. Good kids typically don't happen by accident.

I was awake until almost 1 AM thinking about this kid. It's just awful. I joked about wanting his butt locked up earlier in the summer and now that he is, there is no sense of accomplishment.

If the first years are the most important and parents don't do their job, who do you blame? It starts at home, period. Peers, schools, TV, a lot of outside influences are there. But as one cousin has told me many times, when she was trying to pound sense into her son's head for all those years, it must have taken because now she hears her values coming back at her from him. And this kid was a full time job for his parents.

I'm sure many of the cops we deal with have children and they are the first ones to assign blame to parents. It ought to be criminal what they don't do for their children. And by the way, it's not just poor people we're talking about here.

[RainyDay]

This is a very hard time to be a parent but it's an even harder time to be a kid. They need more today because there is so much more that can happen to them. I chose not to be a parent because, frankly, the idea of it scared the hell out of me. Hats off to all who did it anyway and produced responsible adults. It ain't easy.

[GoodSpeak]

Originally posted by Jimmy Cantiello
Wow, Rainy has really hit a nerve with me. I can't argue with anything she's said. Couldn't agree with her more.

The total lack of parental responsibility nowadays is astounding. You need a license to get married but any idiot can become a parent. And most of them do......................

I agree.


Parenting has become a lost art in this day and age.


BUT, and this is my point, there are far more reasons for this than stupid people having kids. Not the least of which are:

The wholesale destruction of the family unit via divorce, adultery, lack of proper focus and our throw away/materialistic society.

Lack of spousal communication.

Job stresses and money woes.

The daily and grinding commute to a job some two hours [one way in many cases] cased by:

The abusively high cost of real estate.

BOTH parents working outside of the home.

Too many irons in the fire/time management.


Having said all of that, I do also believe that the problem lies with poor parental choices. Maybe instead of buying that fancy home or living at the coast or getting that SUV parents could make the sacrifice to spend that money on their kids. Take them to baseball games, go for a swim, play a board game, go see a movie together.

In our case, we live in a very modest middle class home, our newest car is 9 years old and my wife is a stay at home mom. We're in debt up to our ears, but guess what? Our kids behave well in public, they have a solid values base and they are [more often than not] a pleasure to be around.

People make choices, but if you choose to have kids then all the other stuff takes a back seat. If you can't be bothered, go to a clinic and get the birth control/tubligation/vasectomy.

[tippy]

I believe there is less time for parents to both provide for and attend to children due to a major shift towards obtaining possessions that are sold to us over the tv. Maybe in addition to moving into the workforce, women should also have stood ground for a proper monetary valuation of housekeeping and childcare.

[Jim Dye]

I just found out last night that my wife is pregnant again! (2nd child)

Then I logged on this morning and saw this thread

[GoodSpeak]

Originally posted by tippy
I believe there is less time for parents to both provide for and attend to children due to a major shift towards obtaining possessions that are sold to us over the tv. Maybe in addition to moving into the workforce, women should also have stood ground for a proper monetary valuation of housekeeping and childcare.

I agree.

I also applaud companies who have on site child care facilities.

[GoodSpeak]

Originally posted by Jim Dye
I just found out last night that my wife is pregnant again! (2nd child)

Then I logged on this morning and saw this thread

LOL

Hang in there, Jim.


Oh, and Congrats!


[kids are great, aren't they?]



;-)

[RainyDay]

Jim: Congrats. Don't let this thread get you down.

[tippy]

Hey Jim, congratulations!!! Anyone who gets a segueway for his chicken is sure to be a good parent, um, right Gang?

[Jim Dye]

Thanks Rainy, Goody and Tippy! I do understand where you are coming from. I worked in education for a couple of years. Some of the parents I dealt with were unbelievable. Plus you see it everywhere you go these days. So sad.

However, I'm still very excited and thrilled about another child. It is such hard work, but very rewarding.

Guess I shouldn't buy that new Spinners box set that just came out... Gotta save those pennies!

[jazzy mary]

Jim, That's good news!!! And you should buy that new Spinners set, especially *now*, so your whole family can groove to those great songs!!!

Rain, Yeah, I think I am a good parent. For ex., I would NEVER allow my children to be out at 1:00 a.m. unless they were with me!!

Speak, Tell me about the commute nightmare--my daily commute back and forth is 2 hours--at least!

And Tip, it's not about menetary possesssions. We don't have anything. No SUV, no DVD, no vacation or weekend home, no fancy nothing and so on. But it takes 2 incomes to make it now. I'm the major breadwinner in my family and it is very hard!!! My kids ask me all the time why our car is such a heap (I ask myself that too) but they don't really care about that. I'd rather pay $250 a month in music lessons and keep the car on the road a little longer.

[Dr Dave]

Rainy is right on here. We live across the street from an elementary school, where my wife sometimes works. There are programs for reading, programs for building self-esteem, etc. But there are no programs for making parents take responsibility for their kids. No programs for the employers of parents to realize there is life outside the workplace, either. Let's face it: The deck is stacked against kids unless their parents have money and/or free time to actually raise their children. The most chilling fact of all: The kids know what the score is. Nobody cares about them (unless you count bizarre dysfunctional neediness of parents as "caring"), so they don't care about anybody. With predictable results.

[RainyDay]

Tomorrow we are having a neighborhood barbecue. I have no idea who is attending beside the half dozen or so of us who planned it. None of us have kids, at least young ones living at home. None of the parents helped plan it. I'm sure the kids will show up for the hot dogs and chicken. I am not at my best when dealing with wise ass children so tomorrow is going to tax my coping skills to the absolute max. The cops encouraged us to do a block party but we opted for a backyard barbecue to test the water. I suppose we will find out the full story about the kid who was arrested.

It's really quiet tonight. No kids out playing.

RainyDay, I know what you're talking about, especially parents' denial [Gripes my ass to no end.]. I had a brief teaching experience in the roughest middle school in an adjoining county.
It was the teacher's(mine)responsibilty to notify the parent(s)in cases of problems with discipline and school work with my students[which is another story]. Most often the parent is in denial. If not that it was apathy or the attitude that "kids will be kids." WTF(?!)

[jesus marion joseph]

For some reason, whenever anyone told my mother that I was doing something wrong she had no trouble beliveing them at all!

[cookie]

I hear you JMJ. If someone told my parents I had misbehaved they wouldn't be in denial. Like Rainy, I can't understand parents who let their kids run wild. I can't understand parents who always have a "not MY kid" attitude. I have kids and I want them to behave like civilized humans. I'm essentially a stay at home mom now (jazz singing is my interesting home business). My neighborhood is safe, but I want to have a general idea of where my kids are at all times. They are expected to check in at regular intervals when riding bikes and playing outdoors. If they don't, I go looking for 'em, haul 'em home and they lose their priviledges for a while. I've had other people report infractions of the rules to me (riding a bike in front of a car across an intersection, picking a neighbor's flowers) and both were met with gratitude for the calls and consequences for the kids.

My kids can be mouthy, but overall, they act right in public because they know that if they don't, they won't get away with it.

I am their mother and I'd like to be their friend, but being their friend isn't my first priority. It's more important that I be their mother and make sure that they'll grow up to be decent adults who care about someone besides themselves and can meet their own survival needs.

I'm coming up on the middle school years with my oldest and quite frankly, it's a little scary. That was a hard part of my childhood. My parents made mistakes but they did the best they could. At least they made the mistake of being OVER protective. It made me have a rebellious spirit, but it protected me from acting out and ruining my life at a young age. I hope I do better with the adolescent years than my parents did, but I'll tell you what: if curfews are broken or boundaries violated or laws broken, there will be consequences for my kids up to and including any legal ones. My parents would have done so too (except that they kept the reins so tight I had little opportunity to get into trouble). I expect them to act right or I will hunt them down, bring 'em home and sit on them.

I love 'em too much to see them hurt themselves or others and I will do what it takes to show them the limits while nurturing their spirits (my kids are studying music too, Jazzy Mary, and I agree---it's a great thing for them and worth the money).

I don't consider myself a great parent. I make my share of mistakes and my kids aren't perfect. But I do my best to be a responsible parent. I think that's the LEAST a parent can do for their children.

[RainyDay]

Wow, Cookie. Cyber hug coming at 'cha. Your kids are really lucky.

[RainyDay]

The neighborhood BBQ was interesting. Things are much worse than we realized so people are really motivated to make change. No parents came. Not many people showed up and one kid came after the cops left but we mapped out some strategies. And this kid knows where we are coming from, which means the rest of the 'hood will know by sundown. What a way to spend a beautiful Saturday afternoon. Hanging with cops, politicians, unhappy neighbors and one juvenile delinquent with an ankle bracelet courtesy of the juvenile justice system.

Oh, and the kid next door sitting in jail? He committed his crime with a gun. And they found two more guns in his bedroom.

Slightly in denial and out-of-touch:

[RainyDay]

Let's see, he was expelled for being a discipline problem. He's going to alternative school. He stole a car. Sure, I can see why dad is shocked. This is obviously a choirboy getting a bum rap. And dad is a cop. Don't you just love it?

[Ron Thorne]

In case I wasn't clear enough in my two previous posts, I don't take issue with what Rainy's decrying here. First of all, I quite agree that parenting is in serious trouble in America. Secondly, you don't need to be a parent to recognize a good and responsible one.

Dr. Laura and Dr. Phil are entirely different issues.

Hope the food was tasty at the BBQ, Rainy.

Congratulations, Jim Dye!

[bobetterblues]

I was a horrible kid, kicked out of schools, etc. I never committed any violent stuff you see nowadays, except for maybe throwing some punches, and breaking a bunhc of shit, which I think is somewhat normal for kids.

It sounds like the neighborhood Rainy is in, is in some pretty bad cricumstances, although I haven't read the specifics.

There is something that irks me a little bit about the tone of the people on this thread though.....I can't put my finger on it. I think being a bad, rebellious kid, and turning out alright has maybe given me a different perspective on this thing and its probably a sore subject for me as well.

For example, Rainy, you're saying these kids are going to hell, and you're obviously very emotional which is understandable. But, as a young troubled kid, its very hard to overcome labeling like that. When everyone is telling you, you're the bad kid, your'e evil, and your'e a bad person, you start to believe it and you start to have horrible self esteem, which can then make you act out even more. Then the parents and everyone become outraged and label you some more, so you feel even worse. Its a viscious cycle that's hard to break. The bottom line is that most kids deep down don't WANT to be bad, they want to be loved.

I felt like the whole world was against me when I was working on my issues as a youth, and I felt like nobody understood. Also, most people assume that people can't change, and that a bad kid is hopeless. Its just not true.

I truely believe that love and compassion is the only way for these kids to grow, not condemnation and outrage. They need something to love and someone to love them, because that's what will get them through it.

In a lot of cases the parents just aren't going to give that to them. Honestly, I just think that, that's life and the only way to fight it is to try and make the kid believe in himself someway and somehow and show him that there's more to life than what his family has shown him/her. Sadly, much of it has to do with the lack of emphasis our society has put on parenting, family, education, etc. Family is just NOT the #1 priority in our culture. Its like, having a family and kids, is something you have to do in your free time! Both parents work, and longer hours than ever.

There should be a law that states if you have children, you're not allowed to have television in your home.