Poll of American Muslims

[Clay Fink]

"Muslim Americans: Middle Class and Mostly Mainstream"

http://people-press.org/reports/disp...3?ReportID=329

A couple of interesting items: 47% of American Muslims see themselves as Muslims first and Americans second, while 81% of British Muslims see themselves as Muslims first. Also, 42% of American Christians see themselves as Christians first (it's on page 31 of the report). The only really ugly item here is that 40% of the people who identified as Muslims first don't believe that any Arabs were among the terrorists who carried out the 9/11 attacks.

[groover]

Originally Posted by Clay Fink

The only really ugly item here is that 40% of the people who identified as Muslims first don't believe that any Arabs were among the terrorists who carried out the 9/11 attacks.

And how many of those simultaneously feel that 9/11 was a great victory for Islam?

[Monte Smith]

It's an encouraging poll for the USA and more proof that we don't face the same problems as Europe. Except, of course, that there is nothing easier than a "European" flying to the USA directly from his terror mosque.

[Clay Fink]

Originally Posted by Monte Smith

It's an encouraging poll for the USA and more proof that we don't face the same problems as Europe. Except, of course, that there is nothing easier than a "European" flying to the USA directly from his terror mosque.

Why European in quotes?

[Paul B]

I think Monte's point--and it's legitimate one--is that many Muslims living in Europe aren't really Europeans, in that they have no interest or stake in democracy or Western values.

[Pedantic Wretch]

Originally Posted by Paul B

I think Monte's point--and it's legitimate one--is that many Muslims living in Europe aren't really Europeans, in that they have no interest or stake in democracy or Western values.

It could be argued that the vast majority of Europeans (not to mention Americans) have 'no interest or stake in democracy', although they may have an interest in cretinous xenophobia.

[Paul B]

Europeans have every right to expect people living in their countries to assimilate and support their values; calling them xenophobic for that is a simplistic (or should I say cretinous) cop-out. Doesn't matter what they believe in; if immigrants flood their countries they should be expected to partake in that country's values. On this front, sadly, the guilt-inspired side of the west comes to the fore. Too afraid to admit a problem, it falls back on banalities that would be laughable were they not, in the end, so dangerous. Just ask Theo van Gogh (oops, you can't.) It's rare that I agree with Monte, but on this topic he is on the mark.

[Scott Dolan]

This is quite possibly the most frightening day I can recall here in a long time.

Not only do I agree with Mr. B. concerning two different subjects, but he, Monte, and I also agree on something.

Very discomforting.

I'm wondering just who is "coming around" at this point.

[john williams]

I wonder how many American Christians really see themselves as Christians first and Americans second? Secondly, who would question their right to be Christians first? Who's telling the truth?

Why all this fuss over a flags and a fairy stories anyway?

Perhaps the reason British Muslims feel ok about saying that they're Muslims first is because there's less frothing at the mouth about such inanities over there.

[crawjo]

Originally Posted by Paul B

Europeans have every right to expect people living in their countries to assimilate and support their values; calling them xenophobic for that is a simplistic (or should I say cretinous) cop-out. Doesn't matter what they believe in; if immigrants flood their countries they should be expected to partake in that country's values. On this front, sadly, the guilt-inspired side of the west comes to the fore. Too afraid to admit a problem, it falls back on banalities that would be laughable were they not, in the end, so dangerous. Just ask Theo van Gogh (oops, you can't.) It's rare that I agree with Monte, but on this topic he is on the mark.

I disagree with this statement. European "values" are not fixed, hegemonic entities. Societies are always waging internal wars to define what these values are, and because the European populations are changing, so must the values. There's really nothing new about it. People migrate from one place to another, they bring with them their own ideas about the world. Their values blend with the values of the places where they live, and new forms are created.

Anyway, given that Europe spent about 100 years colonizing most of the globe and imposing its values on other cultures, I'd say that turnabout is fair play. Eventually the former colony will speak back to the metropole, regardless of whether the metropole wants to hear it.

[Pedantic Wretch]

Originally Posted by Paul B

Europeans have every right to expect people living in their countries to assimilate and support their values

I presume that by 'their' values you mean those imposed by the legal systems of European governments? In which case, the actual populations of those countries have little say in the drafting of legislation. I can't say that I identify with the 'values' (e.g. warmongering, opportunistic authoritarianism in the face of fabricated 'terror' scares) of the current British government, nor can most people, since the govt. was elected by only 22% of the population.

Originally Posted by Paul B

Doesn't matter what they believe in; if immigrants flood their countries...

The 'flood' metaphor is purely the stuff of far-right paranoia, and contains dubious undertones suggestive of fear of miscegenation. Migration has existed throughout history, and will always do so, but nationality is a more recent concept. And it has been European migrants who have inflicted the most carnage on other parts of the world (on at least four continents, in fact), not vice versa.

(I'm largely reiterating what Crawjo said above.)

[walto]

The European Jews wouldn't assimilate either.

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by crawjo

I disagree with this statement. European "values" are not fixed, hegemonic entities. Societies are always waging internal wars to define what these values are, and because the European populations are changing, so must the values. There's really nothing new about it. People migrate from one place to another, they bring with them their own ideas about the world. Their values blend with the values of the places where they live, and new forms are created.

Anyway, given that Europe spent about 100 years colonizing most of the globe and imposing its values on other cultures, I'd say that turnabout is fair play. Eventually the former colony will speak back to the metropole, regardless of whether the metropole wants to hear it.

Your academese is always amusing. Re: the colonization, if the world is just one big, constantly mutating place where no fixed ideas about government or culture hold sway for long (or are not even important), then what's the problem with colonization in the first place? And why bother studying culture at all if it's all just a meaningless, changing morass? African culture surely isn't a "fixed, hegemonic" entity, so what was wrong with the Europeans joining the party there? I know, their "metropoles" are full of racist, warmongering haters, the sort of people not found anywhere else.

Basically, then, you support actions like the murder of Theo van Gogh. Tit for tat, right? I suppose nothing a non-European "European" can do is bad, when those countries don't have any real, discernable values against which to judge anybody in the first place. And hell, what's a little 9/11 to cleanse a corrupt and racist "metropole?"

[Pedantic Wretch]

Why keep mentioning the murder of Theo van Gogh? That was almost three years ago, and perpretrated by one individual.

Why, as someone who elsewhere exhibits the opinions of a 'US liberal', are you so eager to repeat the cartoonish Bushite line ('they hate our freedom') on the cause of terrorism?

[Gentle Giant]

The Europeanism recalls to mind my Turkish friends, who consider themselves to be part of Europe, though they border Iraq. They are Muslim, but not religious, and Turkey is currently embroiled in a violent struggle to remain an officially secular nation. The war is complicating matters there because of anti-US sentiment and the emboldening of religious Muslims. Just received this email from my friend there:


Hi Jason,

Thank you for thinking us. We all are OK. The attack happened fifty meters ahead of my office building and I passed from there half an hour ago before the incident happened. We are very sad and worried because 340 tons of explosive material which belongs to the U.S. has been lost in Iraq and it is estimated that one ton of it has already been brought in Turkey by terrorist kurds. 200 kg. of it has been found in Turkey by the Police but the rest are still lost. They used just 4 kg. explosive two days ago and they killed 6 people and wounded more than 100 people. One of the killed people is my colleague's son. He was going to be married two days later and he went to buy a wedding dress to this mall.

Thank you again for thinking and worrying about us. I will write you later a detailed e-mail.

Lots of love.

Kerem.

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by Pedantic Wretch

Why keep mentioning the murder of Theo van Gogh? That was almost three years ago, and perpretrated by one individual.

Why, as someone who elsewhere exhibits the opinions of a 'US liberal', are you so eager to repeat the cartoonish Bushite line ('they hate our freedom') on the cause of terrorism?

I don't buy that notion as one that explains 9/11 or al Qaida, but I do think there are fundamental differences between the way Muslims and Europeans view matters such as the role of the state, democracy, human rights, and ethics (a quick look at any Muslim country is telling in that regard). I think it's willful blindness to pretend that, down the line, there won't be far more incidents such as the Van Gogh murder, or that the vast number of Muslim immigrants in Europe isnt' eventually going to cause some major cultural clashes. But who knows, maybe Europe will finally come around to Muslim enlightenment and allow the stoning of women for adultery.

[groover]

I'm sure P.W. is looking forward to living under Sharia. The day will come soon, if Allah wills it!

Don't forget, P.W., no alcohol and bow to the east five times daily when you hear the call, if you want to keep your head attached!

[jeff54]

Most Muslims in the U.S. are fairly recent immigrants. As with any other immigrant group it takes a while to assimilate but assimilate they will. By the 3rd generation they will consider themselves as American as apple pie. The reason the numbers are so much higher in Britain is it takes about 50 generations of living there before one can actually become pompous enough to be considered truly British.

USA USA USA USA USA

[Scott Dolan]

Originally Posted by PW

The 'flood' metaphor is purely the stuff of far-right paranoia

Take a trip to Florida or Texas before you start hanging some uninformed, nonsensical label on something. In areas of south Florida it is not "far right paranoia". The Cuban and Mexican populations there are in the majority. And it wasn't like that 20 years ago. I don't have any demographic numbers for you, but I'm sure they wouldn't be hard to come by with some quick searches.

Can it be called a "flood"? Sure it can. There has been a rapid increase in the Hispanic community in many of those towns. You may not experience that kind of thing in your little corner of Utopia, but don't presume to tell me, who saw it firsthand, that it is some kind of paranoid fantasy.

[Scott Dolan]

Here, check out these demographics. I'll see if I can find what they were 20 years ago:


http://www.city-data.com/city/Immokalee-Florida.html

[groover]

Originally Posted by walto

The European Jews wouldn't assimilate either.

But they weren't agitating to change the legal system to conform to their religious law, were they?

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

Can it be called a "flood"? Sure it can. There has been a rapid increase in the Hispanic community in many of those towns. You may not experience that kind of thing in your little corner of Utopia, but don't presume to tell me, who saw it firsthand, that it is some kind of paranoid fantasy.

It's either a paranoid fantasy or a racist fantasy if you feel threatened by Latinos in Florida and Texas. Personally, I feel more threatened by certain Caucasians from Texas.

[groover]

Europe's being flooded with Muslim immigrants, the U.S. is being flooded with Hispanics. In both cases, the immigrant birth rates are dwarfing the rest of the population.

If the choice is between morphing into Saudi Arabia or Mexico, I'll take Mexico! Se habla?

[Scott Dolan]

Originally Posted by Pete C

It's either a paranoid fantasy or a racist fantasy if you feel threatened by Latinos in Florida and Texas. Personally, I feel more threatened by certain Caucasians from Texas.

Can you please show me where I said I feel threatened by Latinos?

Don't be a dipshit.

[Pedantic Wretch]

Originally Posted by groover

I'm sure P.W. is looking forward to living under Sharia. The day will come soon, if Allah wills it!

Don't forget, P.W., no alcohol and bow to the east five times daily when you hear the call, if you want to keep your head attached!

Assuming this post was seriously intended, then it's really the kind of rhetoric which belongs on some message board for KKK-type fantasists. At least as bad as any of the myopic 'reds under the bed' hysteria of 1950s anti-communism. Is your source of information on Europe Fox News?

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

Take a trip to Florida or Texas before you start hanging some uninformed, nonsensical label on something. In areas of south Florida it is not "far right paranoia". The Cuban and Mexican populations there are in the majority. And it wasn't like that 20 years ago.

My point is that a flood is a natural disaster. To use it as a metaphor suggests overwhelming destruction. Have Florida or Texas - or, for that matter, the 'American way of life' - been destroyed as a result of Hispanic immigration? I think not.

[groover]

Originally Posted by Pedantic Wretch

Assuming this post was seriously intended, then it's really the kind of rhetoric which belongs on some message board for KKK-type fantasists. At least as bad as any of the myopic 'reds under the bed' hysteria of 1950s anti-communism. Is your source of information on Europe Fox News?

So I gather you are not ready to convert willingly? No problem, your head will make a fine soccer ball, or football, as you may call it.

[Gary Sisco]

How many see themselves as Christians first and Americans second?

Plenty. For a fundamentalist, that's the way it is. One of the reasons they tend to be among the most hawkish of all on American foreign policy toward Israel is that they are *expecting* and *looking forward to* their Armageddon, which, of course, being fundamentalists, they expect to take place as an actual battle in the "holy land." Many of them view themselves as helping prepare the way for Armageddon. And they may well find out one day that they've been successful, except for the Jesus coming back part.

Personally, I see myself as *me* first and as an American somewhere else down the list. I think that in that, when people tell the real truth, which isn't often, I am among the largest majority of Americans.

[Pedantic Wretch]

Originally Posted by groover

So I gather you are not ready to convert willingly? No problem, your head will make a fine soccer ball, or football, as you may call it.

Can I assume that your general paranoia on this issue stems from Zionist narratives about threats to the state of Israel?

[Scott Dolan]

On Dictionary.com:

9.	to overwhelm with an abundance of something: to be flooded with mail.

[groover]

Originally Posted by Pedantic Wretch

Can I assume that your general paranoia on this issue stems from Zionist narratives about threats to the state of Israel?

No, it's based on the demographic trends in Europe. And it's not paranoia, just pragmatism. When your society becomes Islamic, you better hope you can learn to get along.