The US government still the weakest link in trying to stem human contribution to glob

[sonic1]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6725801.stm

[claude]

Dunno, we may not have the size, but we're a pretty weak link in this environmental issue: http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N05268530.htm

[Scott Dolan]

Not only is the title to this thread pretty funny, it is also totally unsubstantiated by the article linked in the first post.

[Scott Dolan]

*globble globble*

[sonic1]

I agree that the kyoto protocols are probably not appropriate for many nations. But I also think the US should be leading the world in trying to stem our polluting output. Yet we remain way behind. It is like that for a lot of issues (not just environmental). The US is arguably the richest country in the world, with the most power and ability, and we fall behind on issues like this where we have more ability than most. There seems to be this inherent fear that putting any restraints on business will kill america. It is a silly fear.

[Scott Dolan]

Jared, how many of the signatory countries met their Kyoto Protocol goals?

Also remember that the Senate voted 98-0 telling Clinton not to sign on to that horseshit. Are you going to tell me that there wasn't a single Senator at that time who believed in global warming, or the new and improved climate change?

My guess is that the vote would probably be quite similar today as well because of the unrealistic goals that had been set.

As minds slowly begin to change towards the reality of climate change, so will the policies.

[sonic1]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

Jared, how many of the signatory countries met their Kyoto Protocol goals?

Also remember that the Senate voted 98-0 telling Clinton not to sign on to that horseshit. Are you going to tell me that there wasn't a single Senator at that time who believed in global warming, or the new and improved climate change?

My guess is that the vote would probably be quite similar today as well because of the unrealistic goals that had been set.

As minds slowly begin to change towards the reality of climate change, so will the policies.

You are probably right. But that doesn't excuse the fact that we have done relatively little while being one of the biggest problems/polluters.

Global warming aside, there are a million other reasons to stem our polluting habits. It does not seem to be a very big priority in this country. That is very troubling. Greenhouse gas is one thing. But water quality (water quantity), air quality, soil quality, and the quickly disappearing wildlands are all enough reason for us to be greatly alarmed and doing something. Hell, water alone is a very huge issue. The fact that we are not ahead of every other country, but behind most first world nations, is embarressing.

[Surfer]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

As minds slowly begin to change towards the reality of climate change, so will the policies.

Cool. We have all the time in the world.

[sonic1]

Originally Posted by Surfer

Cool. We have all the time in the world.

Ha ha!

[Gordon B]

Originally Posted by sonic1

You are probably right. But that doesn't excuse the fact that we have done relatively little while being one of the biggest problems/polluters.

I haven't heard a single Presidential candidate from either party call for a carbon tax and an end to both tariffs on sugar and subsidies for corn based ethanol.

In fact, Obama and Biden are Senate leaders behind the corn ethanol subsidy. Bush supports it as does Clinton. http://economistsview.typepad.com/ec...gman_th_1.html

[sonic1]

Originally Posted by Gordon B

I haven't heard a single Presidential candidate from either party call for a carbon tax and an end to both tariffs on sugar and subsidies for corn based ethanol.

Yes and I hope I have not made this out to be a republican or democratic flaw. Neither the democratic congress nor the republican executive office has shown any sort of leadership on these issues.

[Scott Dolan]

Originally Posted by Surfer

Cool. We have all the time in the world.

Have you got any better suggestions?

[Surfer]

Outlaw the internal combusion engine.

[sonic1]

The thing that gets me about all this is that people always talk about climate change, which in my mind is probably the least of our worries. That is, if the coasts don't tragically flood and ocean chemistry change dramatically like they think is possible. I mean, what about water? Lots of people think that in our near future wars may be fought more over water, instead of oil. Is that not alarming? It is sort of appalling that it seems we might just all let this surprise us one day, when there is lots of evidence showing how possible these tragedies are. I am continually surprised that people think environmentalists are just a bunch of dread-locked hippies who climb big trees to stop loggers. Or that they are all just out to put a monkey-wrench in american capitalism.

[Sandi22]

With the stongest storm to hit the Persian Gulf region in over 60 years, what will happen to the cost of oil?

Is this another harebinger; is it just the beginning?

This type of weather is what scientists have been prediciting. Not that it hasn't happpened before, but this very well could be a result of global warming.

160 mile an hour sustained winds according to a report I had come in a surfing newsletter a couple of days ago. High surf, monstorous waves and surges so that the populace was heading for higher ground, that is, if and when it could be found. Scary I'd bet, expecially so after seeing what happened in Thailand and other coastal countries. Really worrisome.

[Scott Dolan]

Originally Posted by Sandi22

With the stongest storm to hit the Persian Gulf region in over 60 years, what will happen to the cost of oil?

Is this another harebinger; is it just the beginning?

This type of weather is what scientists have been prediciting. Not that it hasn't happpened before, but this very well could be a result of global warming.

160 mile an hour sustained winds according to a report I had come in a surfing newsletter a couple of days ago. High surf, monstorous waves and surges so that the populace was heading for higher ground, that is, if and when it could be found. Scary I'd bet, expecially so after seeing what happened in Thailand and other coastal countries. Really worrisome.

Yeah, it's all very frightening. Just like last years monster Atlantic Hurricane season.

Cycles, people. Cycles.....

[Sandi22]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

Yeah, it's all very frightening. Just like last years monster Atlantic Hurricane season.

Cycles, people. Cycles.....

Back several years ago, when the hole in the ozone layer over Antartica was first learned of and when global warming and chemical toxins became such a worry, it was said that we would only be feeling global warming on a large scale from our emissions from 50 years ago, that it took 50 years for it to come back to hit us. Does that include all of our atom bombs, our hydrogen bombs, the heat of our wars? How about the industrial revolution with our factories spewing out so much heat? Was there any fast track? Are we just now, in the past decade or so, only feeling the heat from those times, and worse is yet to come?

[Surfer]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

Cycles, people. Cycles.....

I agree, that would be a start.

[Sandi22]

Bicycle riding and even walking, if you live in Oregon, is taking your life in your hands, especially this year, it seems for the past couple of months, pedestrians, bicycle riders, and those on motorcycles are being hit at the rate of a couple a week, and most of these accidents have been fatal and they were for the most part, hit an runs; most being left to die with no help being called.

For much of the country, riding a bicycle isn't doable, because of the weather, distance, and such.

I haven't been bicycle riding since I moved to Oregon, the roads are too narrow and the dogs are too mean. We've even had a competing bicyclist, and others as well, run off the road on purpose here; this by 18 wheelers and others. It's just not safe in some areas, not safe at all, and for more reasons than I've mentioned here.

[Surfer]

I disagree with that Sandi.

[Sandi22]

Originally Posted by Surfer

I disagree with that Sandi.

Why would you?

Sure there are wrecks in cars all the time, but, if you live a long distance from where you work and there's ice on the ground or it's snowing, it's not always doable. There are also lots of people who just can't ride a bicycle to work.

I used to get up in the mornings and ride my old bicycle several miles every morning, from Hermosa Beach, up to Palos Verdes, come back and go out for breakfast at one of the little beachfront cafe's, go home change into my swimsuit and go swimming for most of the day, and then ride my bike at sundown oftentimes, to just enjoy the sunset and twilight hours by myself. I could thread a needle with my bicycle, and still I'm not comfortable on narrow roads with cars whizzing by less than six inches from my shoulders going 70 miles an hour. I'd have to be not so bright to undertake a 27 mile ride to town under just that one condidtion alone. Add ice to the equasion or a summer downpour and it becomes even more insane.

It's just not always possible and for more reasons than in my two posts about it.

[Surfer]

Originally Posted by Sandi22

Why would you?

Why would I disagree with you? Because I have a different opinion, that's why. It think a lot of people in urban and semi-urban areas could use their bike more often, if not for work, then for errands and other trips. My experience is obviously different than yours.

[Sandi22]

Originally Posted by Surfer

Why would I disagree with you? Because I have a different opinion, that's why. It think a lot of people in urban and semi-urban areas could use their bike more often, if not for work, then for errands and other trips. My experience is obviously different than yours.

We have programs here in Oregon all the time, ones in which people are encouraged to take their bicycles and our public transportation, and many people do just that, however, we have so many isolated areas where it just isn't possible, and there are also areas which are too dangerous due to the human element as well. It's a pity when it's no longer safe to let your children ride their bicycles to school, due to crazy drivers, bicycle thieves and perverts.

Where you are you get pea soup fog at times I would imagine, as well as tremendous winds, which we also have, minus the foggy conditions, we get fog, but I can't recall having zero visibility here as we did in California, still, there are many times when riding or walking isn't a good idea where you are, or where we are.

One time when our truck was down, Rich rode our bicycle to the post office and then about a mile in the opposite direction to the local convenience store and he came back saying he was almost hit three times, that he had to go off in the ditch to keep from being struck, so this is my reasoning. Then like I've said, the past few months over in the Portland area, and here as well we've had bicyclists hit by cars. it's pretty dangerous being out on the roads, on roads where they're going over 35 miles an hour, mostly over 65 miles an hour, more like pushing 75 and 80.

[kedoane]

Originally Posted by Surfer

I agree, that would be a start.

This option will not help me since I have a 20 mile commute and I work weird hours. It takes me an half an hour to get to/from work without traffic. Longer if I run into traffic.

[Scott Dolan]

So banning the internal combustion engine wouldn't work for you?

[sonic1]

Originally Posted by Sandi22

Bicycle riding and even walking, if you live in Oregon, is taking your life in your hands, especially this year, it seems for the past couple of months, pedestrians, bicycle riders, and those on motorcycles are being hit at the rate of a couple a week, and most of these accidents have been fatal and they were for the most part, hit an runs; most being left to die with no help being called.

For much of the country, riding a bicycle isn't doable, because of the weather, distance, and such.

I haven't been bicycle riding since I moved to Oregon, the roads are too narrow and the dogs are too mean. We've even had a competing bicyclist, and others as well, run off the road on purpose here; this by 18 wheelers and others. It's just not safe in some areas, not safe at all, and for more reasons than I've mentioned here.

Hey I just drove through Oregon recently, and I was born in Astoria. God what a beautiful state!

[sonic1]

Originally Posted by kedoane

This option will not help me since I have a 20 mile commute and I work weird hours. It takes me an half an hour to get to/from work without traffic. Longer if I run into traffic.

Me too. Maybe we should get new jobs. I drive for 45 min each way. It sucks. I hate it. I should get a new job. I didn't even own a car before i got the friggin job.

I miss riding my bike every day. It was nice.

[Surfer]

Tucson you can ride your bike everywhere. So flat. My wife then gf used to ride her bike with her laundry on her handlebars to the laundramat. and back.

[Sandi22]

We used to have the neatest old red metal and wood street cars which ran on tracks, much like the cable cars in San Francisco, but they looked even older, they were pretty fabulous, and would be a tourist attraction if they were still up and running, but, in the 50's, they did away with them. They traveled all over parts of the Southern California area and were fun to ride. They not only got rid of all of them, but they tore up the tracks as well. Pity, they were just what's needed today.

Who was it, Andy Granatelli [sic?} who had an engine which he said didn't need gasoline? He used to go on the old Jack Parr show, and talk about it as well as going on other popular shows where he could talk about it to the public. The oil company's and even the automobile manufacturers fought him on it with everything they could think of, or at least this is what we were hearing, so his idea and invention never was accepted by anyone. What ever happened to that project? Was it a bad concept, or was it doable? Anyone know?

And Ron, I really hope it wasn't your place which went up in flames tonight. They were showing a condo burning in Anchorage, saying the top floors were a total loss. Let us know.

[Sandi22]

Originally Posted by sonic1

Hey I just drove through Oregon recently, and I was born in Astoria. God what a beautiful state!

The scenery is varied. My dad said he couldn't believe the changes all within ten miles or while driving for about ten minutes. He was right, the changes really are dramatic. The air is so clear, unless it's too dry when it gets windy, and then the pumice dust kicks up, and it's as fine as talcum powder; or if there are forest fires, which can be the worst. I kept telling a friend about the beautiful scenery, our beautiful views, the fresh air and all, and so when she came up from California, the smoke was hanging in from a couple of fires and we couldn't even see the mountains from our house and usually it's so clear at night that when the moon is out you can make out the timber line on them. I was so disgusted, I really wanted her to enjoy her stay up here, but all she had were problems, and while up in Washington, a clerk at a pharmacy in a large drug store stole her credit card information and ran up hundreds of dollars on her account, so her trip was a flop.