Japanese ECMs, what's the story?

[riverrat]

I have many Japanese Blue Notes and a lesser number of Japanese CDs from other labels.

As has been discussed ad infinitum on various jazz bulletin boards, such reissues often sound better than their U.S. counterparts. This seems to usually be attributed to the fact that the Japanese have a more active and extensive remastering program using 20-bit, 24-bit, DSD, digital K2 high resolution technologies. In addition, some hold that the Japanese use more rigorous manufacturing techniques, which in turn contributes to better sound in the finished CDs.

I see Japanese versions of ECM titles as well. But I read somewhere (perhaps here?) that some of these were remastered from vinyl and are not "official" ECM releases. Is this true? If so, how does one tell which Japanese ECMs are "official" and which are not? Are the "unofficial" titles just the ones that are not available on CD directly from ECM?

Finally, given the already high quality of most original ECM recordings, do Japanese versions sound significantly better?

[rene]

i have yet to see a Japanese version of an ECM title although i have seen many TAIWAN versions of it using good quality CD-Rs. on the left most portion of the jewel case you will see the name of the artist and title of the album printed in both Mandarin and English.

though the quality of the recordings are quite good, i don't think these are 'official' versions outside that of the German and US releases.

[Dennis Gonzalez]

UCCE, a Japanese company is putting out releases of CD-R's of some of ECM and ECM's sister company, JAPO, LP's and CD's. I believe the masters for these are from vinyl. They're quite good, but very fragile on the bottom blue surface of the CD-R.

I have Elton Dean Quintet's Boundaries. It's a great little package.

Here is a list of what UCCE has put out:

2000-10-04 UCCE-9001 CARLA BLEY "4X4" (non papersleeve)
2001-03-28 UCCE-9002 Keith Jarrett, Gary Peacock, Jack DeJohnette "Standards, Vol.1"
2001-03-28 UCCE-9003 Keith Jarrett, Gary Peacock, Jack DeJohnette "Standards, Vol.2"
2001-03-28 UCCE-9004 KEITH JARRETT, GARY PEACOCK, JACK DEJOHNETTE "CHANGES"
2001-03-28 UCCE-9005 KEITH JARRETT, GARY PEACOCK, JACK DEJOHNETTE "STANDARDS LIVE"
2001-03-28 UCCE-9006/7 KEITH JARRETT, GARY PEACOCK, JACK DEJOHNETTE "STILL LIVE"
2001-03-28 UCCE-9008 KEITH JARRETT, GARY PEACOCK, JACK DEJOHNETTE "CHANGELESS"
2001-03-28 UCCE-9009/10 Keith Jarrett, Gary Peacock, Jack DeJohnette "Tribute"
2001-08-22 UCCE-9011 KEITH JARRETT "THE KOLN CONCERT"
2001-08-22 UCCE-9012 KEITH JARRETT "FACING YOU"
2001-08-22 UCCE-9013/4 KEITH JARRETT "KEITH JARRETT SOLO-CONCERT BREMEN LAUSANNE"
2001-08-22 UCCE-9015/6 KEITH JARRETT "STAIRCASE"
2001-08-22 UCCE-9017 Keith Jarrett "Concerts"
2001-08-22 UCCE-9018 Keith Jarrett "Dark Intervals"
2001-08-22 UCCE-9019 KEITH JARRETT "PARIS CONCERT"
2002-09-19 UCCE-9020 KEITH JARRETT, JAN GARBAREK, PALLE DANIELSSON, JON CHRISTENSEN "MY SONG"
2002-09-19 UCCE-9021 KEITH JARRETT, JAN GARBAREK, PALLE DANIELSSON, JON CHRISTENSEN "BELONGING"
2002-09-19 UCCE-9022 KEITH JARRETT, JAN GARBAREK, PALLE DANIELSSON, JON CHRISTENSEN "PERSONAL MOUNTAINS"
2002-09-19 UCCE-9023/4 KEITH JARRETT, JAN GARBAREK, PALLE DANIELSSON, JON CHRISTENSEN "NUDE ANTS"
2002-09-19 UCCE-9025 KEITH JARRETT "THE SURVIVORS' SUITE"
2002-09-19 UCCE-9026 KEITH JARRETT "EYES OF THE HEART"
2002-09-19 UCCE-9027 PAT METHENY "BRIGHT SIZE LIFE"
2002-09-19 UCCE-9028 PAT METHENY "WATERCOLORS"
2002-09-19 UCCE-9029 PAT METHENY GROUP "PAT METHENY GROUP"
2002-09-19 UCCE-9030 PAT METHENY "NEW CHAUTAUQUA"
2002-09-19 UCCE-9031 PAT METHENY GROUP "AMERICAN GARAGE"
2002-09-19 UCCE-9032/3 PAT METHENY, CHARLIE HADEN, JACK DEJOHNETTE, DEWEY REDMAN, MIKE BRECKER "80/81"
2002-09-19 UCCE-9034 Pat Metheny & Lyle Mays "As Falls Wichita, So Falls Wichita Falls"
2002-09-19 UCCE-9035 PAT METHENY GROUP "OFFRAMP"
2002-09-19 UCCE-9036/7 PAT METHENY GROUP "TRAVELS"
2002-09-19 UCCE-9038 PAT METHENY w/CHARLIE HADEN & BILLY HIGGINS "Rejoicing"
2002-09-19 UCCE-9039 PAT METHENY GROUP "FIRST CIRCLE"


2005-02-09 UCCE-9042 PAT METHENY GROUP "PAT METHENY GROUP"
2005-02-09 UCCE-9043 PAT METHENY GROUP "AMERICAN GARAGE"
2005-02-09 UCCE-9044 PAT METHENY GROUP "OFFRAMP"
2005-02-09 UCCE-9045/6 PAT METHENY GROUP "TRAVELS"
2005-02-09 UCCE-9047 PAT METHENY GROUP "FIRST CIRCLE"
2005-06-29 UCCE-9048 Chick Corea "PIANO IMPROVISATIONS VOL.1"
2005-06-29 UCCE-9049 KEITH JARRETT, JACK DEJOHNETTE "RUTA AND DAITYA"
2005-06-29 UCCE-9050 JAN GARBAREK, BOBO STENSON, TERJE RYPDAL, ARILD ANDERSEN, JON CHRISTENSEN "SART"
2005-06-29 UCCE-9051 PAUL BLEY "Open, to love"
2005-06-29 UCCE-9052 GARY BURTON, CHICK COREA "CRYSTAL SILENCE"
2005-06-29 UCCE-9053 STEVE KUHN "TRANCE"
2005-06-29 UCCE-9054 Ralph Towner "Solstice"
2005-06-29 UCCE-9055 ART ENSEMBLE OF CHICAGO "NICE GUYS"
2005-06-29 UCCE-9056 Charlie Haden, Jan Garbarek, Egberto Gismonti "MAGICO"
2005-06-29 UCCE-9057 OLD AND NEW DREAMS "OLD AND NEW DREAMS"
2005-08-24 UCCE-9058 Keith Jarrett "The Melody At Night With You"


2006-04-19 UCCE-9070 mal waldron, jimmy jackson, eberhard weber, fred braceful "the call"
2006-04-19 UCCE-9071 Enrico Rava "'Quotation Marks'"
2006-04-19 UCCE-9072 GLOBE UNITY "COMPOSITIONS"
2006-04-19 UCCE-9073 BARRY GUY, HOWARD RILEY, JOHN STEVENS, TREVOR WATTS "ENDGAME"
2006-04-19 UCCE-9074 ELTON DEAN QUINTET "BOUNDARIES"

[riverrat]

Interesting that they are able to sell CD-Rs without getting in hot water.

Here are some links to some ECMs purported to be Japanese and apparently not CD-Rs:

Japanese digitally remastered limited edition gold disc issue of the Jarrett album classic in a deluxe, miniaturized LP sleeve replica of the original vinyl album artwork.

Seems to be a different series

"Available only as a Japanese import"

Same title at CD Universe Seems unlikely that CD Universe would be selling CD-Rs.

Details about the remasterings are hard to find, but are these really CDrs? Seems unlikely to me, but if Dennis has some of these in hand, I guess he would be in a better position to know!

[Dennis Gonzalez]

Originally Posted by riverrat

Details about the remasterings are hard to find, but are these really CDrs? Seems unlikely to me, but if Dennis has some of these in hand, I guess he would be in a better position to know!

Downtown Music Gallery carries the JAPO re-do's, that's how I knew to look online for UCCE's releases. The ones I've seen there are definitely CD-R's (blue color on the bottom)...they kinda look to me like high-falutin' bootlegs. Some other "reissues" of this same type by Japanese companies are Don Cherry's Relativity Suite, Dogon AD by Julius Hemphill, and a few others I can't remember...

[BrianL1]

Originally Posted by Dennis Gonzalez

[B]UCCE, a Japanese company is putting out releases of CD-R's of some of ECM and ECM's sister company, JAPO, LP's and CD's. I believe the masters for these are from vinyl. They're quite good, but very fragile on the bottom blue surface of the CD-R.

Can someone explain the logic of masters from vinyl, for items that already on CD? Surely they cannot get a better sound than ECM did when they transfered the original tapes to digital?

[Ron Thorne]

Originally Posted by BrianL1

Can someone explain the logic of masters from vinyl, for items that already on CD? Surely they cannot get a better sound than ECM did when they transfered the original tapes to digital?

You beat me to it, BrianL1.

And, since they're burned onto a blank CD-R, they're certainly more fragile and have an arguably shorter life expectancy.

[riverrat]

I just checked, and my CD of Keith Jarrett's Koln Concert is a Japanese release, #UCCU-5003. It is the only CD of this title I have heard so I can't compare it to the US version.

It sounds very good, and does not appear to be a CDR. Nor does it appear to be a "gold CD" like some Japanese ECMs I see listed on eBay. It looks like a standard silver CD. The booklet contains a bunch of text in Japanese- the only English is a date (2003), followed by what appears to be a small copy of original liner notes that may have appear on an LP inner sleeve (?)

At the end of the booklet, there is a small text box and logo that says "Rubidium Atomic Clock CD Cutting", but no indication that the CD is a different, or higher bit-rate remaster than the US version. It has an official looking ECM copyright stamp on the CD and also the standard "All Rights Reserved" blurb and Universal Music Company text.

So it seems that at least SOME ECMs are available in non-CDR Japanese versions.

[Steve Lake]

Hi,
just to jump in and clarify:
UCCE is simply a standard prefix of Universal Japan, ECM's licensee over there...
Those are all legitimate releases. They are not CD-Rs. Not bootlegs. And nothing on ECM has ever been mastered from vinyl.
The Japanese issues derive from the best available sources - including analog tapes where we have them.
The remastering is done in Hannover and new masters sent to Tokyo...Only exception I can recall in recent years is Takashi Kako's "Paradox" Japo album which was licensed to Japanese label PJL for a Japanese free jazz series. Kenny Inaoka in Tokyo supervised mastering from the analog 1/4 " - and did a great job...

all best to all


Steve

[Dennis Gonzalez]

Hi Steve...I'd seen your name from the day you joined and wondered when you were going to join in. So, now that you posted, you're no longer a virgin, so fill us in on all the details.

Good to have you here.

Your productions through the years have been nothing short of special.

One question: If there are no CD-R's being made by Universal Japan, is blue now a standard CD manufacturing color?

[riverrat]

Yes, Steve please do tell all!

Are the Japanese ECMs different remasters from their U.S. and EU counterparts?

And what is the story on the "gold" ECMs that I see on eBay? There seem to be different versions of Japanese reissues of popular ECM titles- Koln Concert and Pat Metheny ECMs come to mind.

[Steve Lake]

Thanks, Dennis. Which albums do you have in blue?
Our sample copies from Universal Japan are resolutely silver - except for a Gold Collection of best-selling titles that they put out a few years back...

best, Steve

[Steve Lake]

To answer riverrat: European, US and Japanese masters are identical - all from the same source.

best, Steve

[VIBEr]

Steve,

I just want to chime in and welcome you, and I'm looking forward to reading your book on ECM as soon as possible.

Looking forward to hearing what you have to say...

[Dennis Gonzalez]

Originally Posted by Steve Lake

Thanks, Dennis. Which albums do you have in blue?
Our sample copies from Universal Japan are resolutely silver - except for a Gold Collection of best-selling titles that they put out a few years back...

best, Steve

The Boundaries CD (Elton Dean Quintet) is definitely blue, as are the others I mentioned not on JAPO or ECM...Don Cherry's Relativity Suite and Dogon AD by Julius Hemphill.

BTW, I made a "pilgrimage" to ECM in Munich back in 1980 or 1981 looking for anyone to talk to, and I ended up with a stash of free LP's, given to me by Thomas Stowsand...one of those was Boundaries. I was so in love with that LP that I decided to record my CD Catechism with the same crew (of course without the brilliant Marc Charig...he would've blown me out of the studio!)

[Steve Lake]

Originally Posted by Dennis Gonzalez

BTW, I made a "pilgrimage" to ECM in Munich back in 1980 or 1981 looking for anyone to talk to, and I ended up with a stash of free LP's, given to me by Thomas Stowsand...one of those was Boundaries. I was so in love with that LP that I decided to record my CD Catechism with the same crew (of course without the brilliant Marc Charig...he would've blown me out of the studio!)

I didn't know about the "Catechism" recording, Dennis, but am familiar with some of your late 80s things -- groups with Charles Brackeen and Malachi Favors, albums recorded on consecutive days, if I remember right. That's even faster than ECM does it ;-) But good stuff...

best, Steve

[Hoppy T. Frog]

If they are blue, and come from Downtown Music Gallery, they are, shall we say, "unofficial" CD-Rs.

[riverrat]

OK, I'm thinking of ordering THIS.

I hope it is not a CD-R!

[paulgj]

Originally Posted by riverrat

OK, I'm thinking of ordering THIS.

I hope it is not a CD-R!

I wish ECM would release this in the US, I love John Abercrombie's music.

[lpgeffen]

Originally Posted by Dennis Gonzalez

The Boundaries CD (Elton Dean Quintet) is definitely blue, as are the others I mentioned not on JAPO or ECM...Don Cherry's Relativity Suite and Dogon AD by Julius Hemphill.

BTW, I made a "pilgrimage" to ECM in Munich back in 1980 or 1981 looking for anyone to talk to, and I ended up with a stash of free LP's, given to me by Thomas Stowsand...one of those was Boundaries. I was so in love with that LP that I decided to record my CD Catechism with the same crew (of course without the brilliant Marc Charig...he would've blown me out of the studio!)

Dennis, your copy may be blue but mine is definitely a "pressed" CD and not a CD-R.
Same for Rava "Quotation Marks" and Mal Waldron "the call" from the same source.

- Paul

[BrianL1]

Originally Posted by riverrat

OK, I'm thinking of ordering THIS.

I hope it is not a CD-R!

I ordered this a while back and got my copy today. It's a regular "pressed" silver CD.

[lpgeffen]

Here are a few more:

UCCE-9040 Looking For America　/ The Carla Bley Big Band

UCCE-9041 Carla Bley / The Lost Chords

UCCE 9059 Jarrett,Keith(p) La Scala 2000
UCCE 9060 Jarrett,Keith(p) Tokyo 1996 2000
UCCE 9061 Jarrett,Keith(p) Whisper Not 3200
UCCE 9063 Jarrett,Keith(p) Inside Out 2000
UCCE 9064 Jarrett,Keith(p) Always Let Me Go 3200
UCCE 9066 Jarrett,Keith(p) Up for It 2000
UCCE 9067 Jarrett,Keith(p) Out-of-Towners 2000

UCCE-9075/6 Keith Jarrett / Radiance

UCCE-9077/8 Keith Jarrett / Shostakovich: Preludes and Fugues

UCCE-9079 Chick Corea / ARC
UCCE 9080 Mal Waldron / Free at Last

Originally Posted by Dennis Gonzalez

Here is a list of what UCCE has put out:
...
2006-04-19 UCCE-9070 mal waldron, jimmy jackson, eberhard weber, fred braceful "the call"
2006-04-19 UCCE-9071 Enrico Rava "'Quotation Marks'"
2006-04-19 UCCE-9072 GLOBE UNITY "COMPOSITIONS"
2006-04-19 UCCE-9073 BARRY GUY, HOWARD RILEY, JOHN STEVENS, TREVOR WATTS "ENDGAME"
2006-04-19 UCCE-9074 ELTON DEAN QUINTET "BOUNDARIES"

[wolfgang]

Just entered this forum to report you my experiences with these Universal Japan re-releases. I am a "fan" of older ECMs (Jarrett, Garbarek, Metheny) and hoped for a long time, that Universal would re-release some of them in the SA-CD format. Now, after Universal dropped the format, I began searching CD-re-releases in the web and finally found some at www.jazzloft.com. jpc, a vendor in Germany, also has listed some of them. At the moment I own 5 of them: Köln-Concert, My song, Belonging, Bremen-Lausanne, First Circle. They are all part of the above mentioned gold-re-release-series. Compared to the old pressings the sound is much improved, more details, more natural instrument timbre. So am sure, that these have been remastered using high-bit-equipment. I can recommend them!!

[Steve Lake]

[ Compared to the old pressings the sound is much improved, more details, more natural instrument timbre. So am sure, that these have been remastered using high-bit-equipment. QUOTE]

As previously stated, ECM masters used in Japan are the same masters used everywhere, originating from Germany.

I double-checked this a few weeks ago with the ECM office in Tokyo: "We never master any ECM materials only for Japanese release" - Atsuko Nagahama, August 16, 2007.

Some bat-eared audiophiles perceive nuanced differences between pressings, there are those who believe gold CDs sound better than silver ones, and other scientific folk who say it's all down to the percentages of polycarbonate resin and who knows what else in the disc itself...

[Nefertiti]

Thanks for that clarification. I was under the impression that many ECM titles were being reissued in Japan as 24bit remasters, but it turns out that only the "Selected Recordings" samplers advertize remastering.

[lossleader]

Hello,

all Universal Japan ECM/JAPO reissues I have are silver CDs. Liner notes of most of them says: 96KHz/24bit remastered at Emil Berliner Studios, Langenhagen.

best,

Daniel

[riverrat]

Originally Posted by lossleader

...all Universal Japan ECM/JAPO reissues I have are silver CDs. Liner notes of most of them says: 96KHz/24bit remastered at Emil Berliner Studios, Langenhagen....

Sooo, the confusion continues! Steve, who would seem to be the most trustworthy source possible, indicates that Japanese ECMs use the same (i.e. not 24-bit) remasters as the US versions.

Yet here we have liner notes on the Japanese versions saying they ARE 24-bit. I wonder if we will ever get to the bottom of this?

[Steve Lake]

Originally Posted by riverrat

Sooo, the confusion continues! Steve, who would seem to be the most trustworthy source possible, indicates that Japanese ECMs use the same (i.e. not 24-bit) remasters as the US versions.

Yet here we have liner notes on the Japanese versions saying they ARE 24-bit. I wonder if we will ever get to the bottom of this?

The plot thickens! It's not so confusing or contradictory, in fact.Our correspondent Lossleader is speaking of the Japo reissues which are not released anywhere except Japan. (In this case, there is then no US version). They were mastered in Germany (like all ECM material) and necessarily re-mastered since this is the first time they've gone from analog (vinyl) to digital (CD) format. But '24-bit remastering' remains a misleading term. Yes contemporary mastering processes generally use 24-bit technology but this doesn't automatically confer Great Sound. "24-bit" does not always mean "better". Many factors can be involved - including the present-day condition of the original analog tape and the ears of the mastering engineer. And at the end of the process conversion to 16-bit is necessary for CD playback anyway.

all best, steve