If I knew that sort of thing was frowned upon...

[Root Doctor]

I love guys like this:

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Politics/s...3361462&page=1

[Brian Olewnick]

"Several years ago, I asked for and received forgiveness from God"

OK, "asking" I can understand, but how exactly does one know one's
"received" forgiveness from God? An e-mail? Some other documentable item? Or, perchance, does it just take place inside this wacko's head?

[Root Doctor]

Originally Posted by Brian Olewnick

"Several years ago, I asked for and received forgiveness from God"

OK, "asking" I can understand, but how exactly does one know one's
"received" forgiveness from God? An e-mail? Some other documentable item? Or, perchance, does it just take place inside this wacko's head?

I enjoyed that one, too. I guess it's because Vitter's ever so special.

[Gary Sisco]

People talk shit all the time. Especially in a case like this.

At least his wife is apparently honest. Her commentary is very similar indeed to that I've received through the years from my various women friends.

Walking away with one thing, baby

[Gary Sisco]

Whatever happened in that case years ago where a congressman's female aid disappeared? It was big in the papers at the time but I can't recall an end of it, perhaps because I just stopped reading about it.

[jesus marion joseph]

"Asked whether she could forgive her husband after an extramarital affair, as Livingston's wife had done, Wendy Vitter told the Times-Picayune: 'I'm a lot more like Lorena Bobbitt than Hillary [Clinton]. If he does something like that, I'm walking away with one thing, and it's not alimony, trust me.'"

I agree with Gary. Awesome quote.

[guy]

Originally Posted by Gary Sisco

Whatever happened in that case years ago where a congressman's female aid disappeared? It was big in the papers at the time but I can't recall an end of it, perhaps because I just stopped reading about it.

Gary Condit, I think. It was the scandal du jour (for many jours) until 9/11 happened. I think they found the young woman's remains in a DC park. The perpetrator was never discovered.

Guy

[Brian Olewnick]

You'd think it would be about time for religious US politicians, Republican and Democrat, to begin lobbying for deistic precedence when it comes to guilt or innocence in a trial. Obviously, God's laws are vastly superior, more important, etc. than any human-devised court system could ever be. If a jury gets it wrong (because God has told the defendant otherwise), why on Earth should the cruder court's opinion take precedence? You could go through with the trial as usual but then after a guilty verdict the judge would ask the defendant, "Has God told you anything in contradiction to the results obtained in this courtroom?" "Yes, He has, your honor." "And what did He tell you?" "Your Honor, God said that I was innocent of all charges." "Bailiff, release this man."

Such a system would clear things up greatly and, of course, be fairer to boot. If the prosecuting attorney also claims to have received a godly message in contradiction to that received by the defendant, the difference could be simply resolved via a weighting system for the religions involved, presumably something on the order of Protestant->Catholic->Other Christian->Hindu->Muslim->Jew, etc., the latter few subject to reshuffling depending on current world situation and differences within a religion subject to an internal weighting system (ie, high Catholics over third world ones, etc.)

I don't see a problem with this.

[julieswi]

Originally Posted by Gary Sisco

Whatever happened in that case years ago where a congressman's female aid disappeared? It was big in the papers at the time but I can't recall an end of it, perhaps because I just stopped reading about it.

whole conspiracy theory here on that:

http://www.geocities.com/northstarzone/LEVY.html

[Noj]

Originally Posted by Brian Olewnick

You'd think it would be about time for religious US politicians, Republican and Democrat, to begin lobbying for deistic precedence when it comes to guilt or innocence in a trial. Obviously, God's laws are vastly superior, more important, etc. than any human-devised court system could ever be. If a jury gets it wrong (because God has told the defendant otherwise), why on Earth should the cruder court's opinion take precedence? You could go through with the trial as usual but then after a guilty verdict the judge would ask the defendant, "Has God told you anything in contradiction to the results obtained in this courtroom?" "Yes, He has, your honor." "And what did He tell you?" "Your Honor, God said that I was innocent of all charges." "Bailiff, release this man."

Such a system would clear things up greatly and, of course, be fairer to boot. If the prosecuting attorney also claims to have received a godly message in contradiction to that received by the defendant, the difference could be simply resolved via a weighting system for the religions involved, presumably something on the order of Protestant->Catholic->Other Christian->Hindu->Muslim->Jew, etc., the latter few subject to reshuffling depending on current world situation and differences within a religion subject to an internal weighting system (ie, high Catholics over third world ones, etc.)

I don't see a problem with this.

I saw Hillary Clinton with the Devil! I saw Cindy Sheehan with the Devil!

[Tom Storer]

Originally Posted by Brian Olewnick

"Several years ago, I asked for and received forgiveness from God"

OK, "asking" I can understand, but how exactly does one know one's
"received" forgiveness from God? An e-mail?

He mentioned confession. Isn't that the whole point about confession? You confess your sins to God and in return for a penance receive absolution? Sounds like forgiveness to me. He knows he received forgiveness from God because he followed the procedure! No need for an email. It's automatic.

[Ron Thorne]

Tom nailed it.

[Brian Olewnick]

Oh sure, spoil my fun. Who'da thunk a southern Republican was Catholic?

[Pete C]

The Catholics do have a pretty neat system, don't they?

[tippy]

I was always jealous of them both for the art (seen Mormon architecture? holy sheeit) and the surety of absolution. Sure it's not a notarized statement from God but if the priest said....I mean really I might be willing to do some Hail Marys ahead of time for certain sins.

[Tom Storer]

What the Catholic church really needs to do if they want to maximize efficiency is to establish an absolution market: if I'm willing to live in my current state of sin, I can raise money by selling you my absolutions. You can use that investment to expand your own sinning dynamically (pre-absolved sins get you sinning more often, creating opportunities for further sin and making you a more savvy and experienced sinner). The invisible hand, baby. The standard of sinning would rise across the board. An efficient absolution market would create more sinning, hence more penance, hence more absolution from the priestly source, which then goes back into the market. Why has no one seen this before??

[Gary Sisco]

Forgiveness only comes, according to dogma, if the confession includes remorse and a genuine intention not to commit that sin again.

Somehow I don't think ....

Brian -- Quakers and other peace movement types do make those arguments in court, being subject to higher laws, and so forth. It's traditional.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by Tom Storer

What the Catholic church really needs to do if they want to maximize efficiency is to establish an absolution market: if I'm willing to live in my current state of sin, I can raise money by selling you my absolutions. You can use that investment to expand your own sinning dynamically (pre-absolved sins get you sinning more often, creating opportunities for further sin and making you a more savvy and experienced sinner). The invisible hand, baby. The standard of sinning would rise across the board. An efficient absolution market would create more sinning, hence more penance, hence more absolution from the priestly source, which then goes back into the market. Why has no one seen this before??

Gordon's working on it.

[Hudson Boy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VABSo...atholic%2Ehtml

[Dennis Gonzalez]

Originally Posted by Brian Olewnick

"Several years ago, I asked for and received forgiveness from God"

OK, "asking" I can understand, but how exactly does one know one's
"received" forgiveness from God? An e-mail? Some other documentable item? Or, perchance, does it just take place inside this wacko's head?

C'mon, Bri. Don't be silly. Everybody knows (even you somewhere in that lizard brain) that forgiveness of sin is one of the constituent parts of justification. In pardoning sin, God absolves the sinner from the condemnation of the law, and because of the work of Christ, he removes the guilt of sin, or the sinner's actual liability to eternal wrath on account of it.

All sins are forgiven freely - look it up: Acts 5:31; 13:38; 1 John 1:6-9. The sinner is by this act of grace forever freed from the guilt and penalty of his sins. This is the peculiar (and perpendicular) prerogative of God - get that Bible snappin', boy!: Ps. 130:4; Mark 2:5. It is offered to all in the gospel.

Duh!

[Brian Olewnick]

Well, OK then, easy as pie. Don't see why all this botheration with courts and nonsense.

[patricia]

Originally Posted by Dennis Gonzalez

C'mon, Bri. Don't be silly. Everybody knows (even you somewhere in that lizard brain) that forgiveness of sin is one of the constituent parts of justification. In pardoning sin, God absolves the sinner from the condemnation of the law, and because of the work of Christ, he removes the guilt of sin, or the sinner's actual liability to eternal wrath on account of it.

All sins are forgiven freely - look it up: Acts 5:31; 13:38; 1 John 1:6-9. The sinner is by this act of grace forever freed from the guilt and penalty of his sins. This is the peculiar (and perpendicular) prerogative of God - get that Bible snappin', boy!: Ps. 130:4; Mark 2:5. It is offered to all in the gospel.

Duh!

I would think that, if having confessed and received forgiveness on Saturday, one goes out and commits the same sin again within days, not only will one's contrition for the past digression be put into question, but forgiveness for the latest one logically be withheld.
The obvious lack of remourse would negate true forgiveness being bestowed upon the sinner by the grace of the Almighty.
Being therefore in the state of sin, yet again, one would attempt to not die, lest they risk their immortal soul.
But.................what do I know??

[jesus marion joseph]

Originally Posted by Pete C

Gordon's working on it.

LOL

[Ron Thorne]

I 2nd the chuckle Pete provided with that remark.

[Jazzzoline]

Originally Posted by Tom Storer

What the Catholic church really needs to do if they want to maximize efficiency is to establish an absolution market: if I'm willing to live in my current state of sin, I can raise money by selling you my absolutions. You can use that investment to expand your own sinning dynamically (pre-absolved sins get you sinning more often, creating opportunities for further sin and making you a more savvy and experienced sinner). The invisible hand, baby. The standard of sinning would rise across the board. An efficient absolution market would create more sinning, hence more penance, hence more absolution from the priestly source, which then goes back into the market. Why has no one seen this before??

What you need is a web service, a web based solution. I'm sure there's a market. Imagine the sins database. Imma hack it.
*taking every opportunity*.

[Hot Ptah]

Originally Posted by Tom Storer

What the Catholic church really needs to do if they want to maximize efficiency is to establish an absolution market: if I'm willing to live in my current state of sin, I can raise money by selling you my absolutions. You can use that investment to expand your own sinning dynamically (pre-absolved sins get you sinning more often, creating opportunities for further sin and making you a more savvy and experienced sinner). The invisible hand, baby. The standard of sinning would rise across the board. An efficient absolution market would create more sinning, hence more penance, hence more absolution from the priestly source, which then goes back into the market. Why has no one seen this before??

I seem to recall from reading history (several years ago, admittedly) that the Protestant Reformation was significantly motivated by the Catholic Church's monetary selling of indulgences. As I understand indulgences, they were a "get out of jail free card" for time you would otherwise spend suffering in Purgatory for your sins after death, assuming that you had not sinned so horribly that you would go to Hell instead. As I understand it, monetarily purchasing indulgences bought you "days off" your sentence in Purgatory after death, thus hastening the time when you would leave Purgatory and enter Heaven.

So the Catholic Church had thought of your idea centuries ago, thus leading to the creation of Protestant churches.

[tippy]

I don't understand this:

>>Everybody knows (even you somewhere in that lizard brain) that forgiveness of sin is one of the constituent parts of justification<<

That makes it sound like the act of forgiveness is why sin was defined in the first place - I mean do you believe that or were you being facetious? (Just curious.) Because I think if you gotta make a bad thing to make a good thing - well it does seem all very contrived, don't it?

[Sandi22]

I knew a girl from the Philippines, and she was devoutly Catholic, and we had the conversation about this issue, how Catholics are being given absolution, and she said it was a much abused tenent of her faith, that each sin one commits adds to Jesus's cup. She said it in a sweet almost poetic way. That one is to try with all one has inside of them not to commit sins, to not commit the same sin, to not think that you can go about as you please, sinning at will, only to believe you will be absolved of all sin when you confess whichever sin it is you commitied to a priest. She believed that was a paramount sin in itself. That there would be hell to pay for using faith in ones God in such a manner. Not her exact words, but it was her meaning.

Then there's these men who chair these moral watchdog positions in government, or are high up in them. What are they doing? Seeking out these positions so that they will have an inside track on whatever perversion they're into? Sure does seem as though this is just how it is.