Year boundaries in jazz

[Vince Kargatis]

I know this is a completely trivial exercise, but it actually has practical use for me: I don't bother sub-categorizing my jazz mp3s (by sub-genre, I mean), but I sometimes find myself in the mood to listen to such sub-genres, e.g. "mainstream", or iow jazz that wouldn't offend at dinnertime with friends. Given that lack of metadata specificity, I'm stuck with using year as proxy.

So for a "mainstream" smart playlist, I went with everything through 1963 inclusive, my mental line being drawn to exclude Ayler, pretty much (don't have any pre-64 Ayler ripped). That does let some weirder Ornette, Giuffre, and Sun Ra in, but not so much as to justify excluding plenty of other palatable stuff.

So, where would you draw your line for such a purpose? Of course, it would be collection dependent.

Any other year boundaries worth noting? Swing/pre-bop is pretty easy at 1944 inclusive. Picking a "contemporary/modern" year seems harder (i.e. one where your shuffle wouldn't play too much classic hardbop kinda stuff).

I'm sure Jon can muster the apathy to abstain from posting "1975", and there, I did it for him, just in case. And no reminders as to the silliness of the exercise are needed.

[shrugs]

we could make a "so-called jazz is dead" years grouping.
all the great European label recordings would fill it up fast.......

[Uli]

I think it would all depend on what kinda friends you have, Vince.

[adjustment]

I was just thinking about this. I was playing some jazz real late at night during a poker game that was going on too long. I already played a lot of Ben Webster the last game and also Gene Ammons so I was trying to find something a little more adventurous. I tried Joe Maneri but that wasn't cutting it and drew some strange looks but Noah Howard Live In Europe seemed to go over really well. I think there are a lot of variables and one must be alert for a task such as this. Shuffle doesn't do it and a playlist can be good but a more active hand is best. I don't think year really plays much a factor.

[Vince Kargatis]

Originally Posted by adjustment

I don't think year really plays much a factor.

Well, that's why I called it an exercise - of course I'm not suggesting year as some generically useful boundary, just asking what some might find as useful** ones, stemming from the fact that evolution played a part (of course) in the music's history.

**useful in the context of a "smart playlist" - one generated by metadata only.

[Dennis Gonzalez]

You probably need to go one by one down the list and decide by song which belongs where! Everytime you add a new song to your jazz mp3's, label it right then and there, and then start working your way backwards.

[Mike Schwartz]

Who's on first?

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

The business about the years aside, I can completely relate to the catagorization problems. I have, at this point, about 3,500 pieces (mostly songs) that I play, every night, between the dances. And the questions about what to put where never end. Ben E. King is 60s, but his Spernatural Thing is 70s, and I've moved that song back and forth about four times so far. The Temptations have a more clearly defined 60s period and 70s period, so they have entries in each decade's folder. My Waltzes folder is entirely of copies of songs in other folders, since I might want to hear Brother Oswald's version of the Tennessee Waltz via the Old Country folder or via the waltzes folder. (I have one George Jones in the Older Country folder, the rest in the Newer Country folder.) BTW, there's no specific date for my division between Older and Newer Country, just like the division between the 50s and 60s folders, which is intuitive, and lies somewhere around '62 and '63.

All of the above named folder are inside my DJ folder, but I also have a desktop folder called "!!DJ Hot List!!" which I try to keep pruned to 50 or 60 selections, songs I've rarely played and want to feature, plus some songs I play at party dances all the time that I always want to have handy.

So although I can't contribute any dates for you, my suggestion is to keep it related to how you feel about where the piece belongs rather than its actual chronological date, because then you can retrieve it more easily.

[Vince Kargatis]

Originally Posted by Dennis Gonzalez

You probably need to go one by one down the list and decide by song which belongs where! Everytime you add a new song to your jazz mp3's, label it right then and there, and then start working your way backwards.

You either misread the implications of "trivial exercise" or just don't know how lazy I am. I'm completely uninterested in doing more metadata categorization than I do (I don't even get to artwork tagging). I am, however, willing to attempt some mindless entertainment with this thread, and talk about myself.

Originally Posted by Uli

I think it would all depend on what kinda friends you have, Vince.

I'm surprised the kinds of friends I have would impact any answers you might mull, but you may postulate an unsurprising mix of mostly white-culture, middle-to-upper-middle-class folks who neither seek out nor dislike "jazz", if that helps you out, Uli.

Originally Posted by Squaredancecalling Steve

So although I can't contribute any dates for you, my suggestion is to keep it related to how you feel about where the piece belongs rather than its actual chronological date, because then you can retrieve it more easily.

Apologies if this looked like I was seeking advice, which I'm not. This was meant as pure mundane trivial academic exercise.

[Dennis Gonzalez]

Originally Posted by Vince Kargatis

You either misread the implications of "trivial exercise" or just don't know how lazy I am. I'm completely uninterested in doing more metadata categorization than I do (I don't even get to artwork tagging). I am, however, willing to attempt some mindless entertainment with this thread, and talk about myself.

Nah...I knew exactly what you were saying. I was just needling you...'cause you sound so much like me. OK. It's your turn to talk about you.

[Dan G]

Defining eras like that is tough to do, without also looking at scenes/geography.

I used to try to do this regularly for programming a radio program, and found it easiest to delineate eras both by date, style and the people who are most important to me in that era. The dates aren't really accurate and there is a lot of overlap, the people played far longer but for me these are their defining moments, and even trying to put them into a 'camp' was hard. Confusing, but it works for me if I want to listen to a specific style.


earlier than 1945, Pre-Bird (small in my collection)
1945-1955, bebop, defined by Bird.
1953-1962, post-Bird, hardbop - Roach/Brown/Rollins/Blakey/Monk/Dexter...
1959-1964, post-hard bop, Ornette/Mingus/Dolphy
1963-1967, transitional, Trane - Ayler, Henderson, McLean, Hill, etc
1967-1974, early European free, SME, ICP, Globe Unity...that covers most of the people
1967-1974, early American free - AACM, Cecil etc.

After that....it gets too hard to even attempt

[Noj]

I group late fifties to late sixties jazz in one playlist (mostly hard bop), then funkier stuff from the late sixties to early seventies in another. My collection obviously isn't as comprehensive as Dan G's! I've barely explored anything preceding the late fifties.

[Scott Yanow]

So West Coast jazz doesn't exist?

Actually this exercise is a bit impossible because styles rarely ever disappear. New styles come up and are added to the mix. Dixieland was around in the 1960s as bebop was in the 1970s and fusion is still around today. One can come up with starting points for some styles, but few ever completely die. And once it's past the mid-1970s, few new styles even have a name.

[shrugs]

Originally Posted by Scott Yanow

So West Coast jazz doesn't exist?

Actually this exercise is a bit impossible because styles rarely ever disappear. New styles come up and are added to the mix. Dixieland was around in the 1960s as bebop was in the 1970s and fusion is still around today. One can come up with starting points for some styles, but few ever completely die. And once it's past the mid-1970s, few new styles even have a name.

Still hear some dixieland and Danny Barker's students of the Brass Band down here in NOLA.

And look at Jaki Byard and his work. He taught it all and then some....