Forms and meter changes

[Cybergius]

I CAME TO THIS PLACE SHAKING HANDS
NOW I'M IN A BATTLE OF THE BANDS
I THOUGHT YOU WERE MY INTERNET HONEY
BUT I FOUND OUT YOU WERE FUNNY BOI (20)

(that's what she told me...)

NOTICE: I don't agree with posts in here who can't link an original song.

That's form in hip hop, friend.

[Dennis Gonzalez]

Originally Posted by Cybergius

Is there anywhere else to go with jazz but on into the great expanse of meter change, new scale variations, and more interesting ways to comp the melody lines?

How about something that I've done for years (along with people like Ronald Shannon Jackson and Ornette, who I learned the approach from) - playing the structure in whatever time signature is written, but sprawling the melodic/harmonic line on top of that using a rubato feel, and then having the piano solo in and around the whole tune?

Like this.

[Cybergius]

That has it's place in jazz music, and a great place it is, too! I think it is a great place to launch "INTO THE DEEP METER STUFF." Great album site, too!

[Erik Lund]

Dennis - when you said the word "piano" with that other stuff in your response I thought about Hymn for John Carter. Pleasantly surprised to be on the same page, it seems.


As for this guy's question/response:

Other cultures use different meters all the time - Greeks dance in 5 and 7 - Indian cycles are way more complicated than anything you've written I'm sure. Bottom line is whether you are communicating with the other musicians logically - either with a strict time (odd meter or not) and whether it's being related to your audience.

That's the most important part because I don't want to play some 13/16 thing just to prove to a bunch of musicians in the room that I can. (I can)

[Erik Lund]

Hey...Cybergius?

Did you listen to ALL of Dennis' track? your response (after re-reading it) doesn't seem to indicate that you have...Maybe you did, but I feel like either way - you didn't "get" what he was saying/what you were hearing...

Just to reiterate what I was saying - if it doesn't feel good - I don't want to hear some technical exercise... Radiohead does some cool stuff in odd meters/grouping and it feels great. TV on the Radio too. As for jazz - I feel that most times, guys think "Check this out" and it comes off as some craptastic drivel...

[Cybergius]

The Fourteen Six (7/3) it was a joke.

[Erik Lund]

Well, gosh, since you are going to start the yelling first...


Once again - you have missed the point. And by giving me a bunch of links to your own work online, you haven't given me one example that makes me think you understood Dennis' piece or what he was trying to say.




"But I still like taking the meter with me where I'm going instead of letting the meter dictate the beat; no training wheels...

I only comply to the rules as they apply to the general form, A, B, C, D. The closest use of my kind of meter change is one I found in hispanic songs and ballads, where the meter just seems to go for a little pleasant walk, and everybody else can just like it."




I have no idea what you are saying here. And I think there aren't many people involved in this thread because they don't either. I'm not sure if you hopped on board to put your stuff in another place (google videos, youtube, etc) and decided to put some pseudo thesis to it but it sure seems like it.



"If you don't like anyone's particular style just steer clear of it unless you have to learn it for a club gig or a private party. We all learned Louie Louie and Wipe Out, you know!"



???? I'll try to steer clear of it, but since I've heard it, and this *is* a BBS where people talk about what they've heard, I figure I should comment on it... I'm not sure where the "jazz" comes into play in your work, but I didn't listen to every single track (as you say you do). And I couldn't say there was any improvisation/interplay/etc in any of those 1980's Casio keyboard sounds you've conjured up. Not hearing any of that burning over the radical meter changes that you talked about in your posts.

I hear keyboard-lite-pseudo-elevator-grocery-store-lite beats (Casio Style #08 "Bossa Ballad") with farty electronic trumpet/sax voices playing over a stale 4/4 most of the time, with the occassional stutter on a few pieces to give any basis for your meter talk...


I was a top classical percussionist in high school - studied with a gentleman from the Boston Symphony and never once have I ever heard of someone using "7/3" as a time signature...Could you explain it to me? Maybe there have been advancements in the world of meter that have evaded me, but I would love to know exactly what you mean. Sure you can play 7 over 3 (meaning a beat of 7 and a beat of 3 overlapping) but 7/3 meaning the... triple-note...gets the beat?

Since we're dealing with wholes, halves, quarters, 8th, 16th, etc, that 3 under that 7 (7/3) is bullshit. You could just say 7/8. Is that what you're trying to imply? 7/8? or 7/4? Because 7/3 doesn't mean shit.

WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY? Why would you write something in a time signature that only you seem to understand? You mentioned something about learning stuff for the gigs, but I'm not sure what kind of gigs you are playing your music at. And I'm definitely sure that if you explained your 7/3 to someone they would think "Oh okay, 7/8. Gotcha"

Because

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search


Maybe you should click on *that* and then click on some of the links on *that* and get back to me on your magical 7/3 time that you seem to be so fond of and that you can play so relaxed and easy to...




You have been pwned.

[Cybergius]

This thread is for the discussion of the many different forms of jazz music. And, one thing is for certain, Mr. Lund, you never cop an attitude about jazz musicians.

[Erik Lund]

What notes are you writing to express this non-existent time signature. Obviously you can group any number of notes into 1 beat - I practiced (with a click) groupings of 1 note per beat, 2 (duples), 3 (triplets), 4 (16th) 5 (quintuplets), 6 (sextuplets), etc etc until 12 per measure. I could go on to 13ths etc but at that speed, with drums, it turns into a roll (which I can do single-stroke faster/cleaner than most - Jim Chapin agrees with me) so why bother?

But the bottom number was always a 2, 4, 8, etc. Because that is how notation has been written - you add another staff - you cut the value in half. What new notation are you using to communicate this time signature that only exists in your head? I could count out your pieces for you but there would be no 7/3 involved?

I am in a hurry, so I heard half of your symphony, which was a dramatic step forward for me in your musical writings, fwiw. Anway - curious if you could give me a link to some of your manuscript to see exactly how 7/3 is written out...

[Cybergius]

Jazz music sounds crazy and far out to a lot of people and that's why it's fun! The jazz numerator is how many beats there are in a measure and the jazz denominator is how many measures there are to the bar, and it's true of all music.

One jazz great who had a "Loose Collar" was Dave Brubeck, who played and taught jazz in 5/4 timing. I really got hooked on TAKE FIVE.

"one two three FOUR FIVE, one two three FOUR FIVE."

He was far out!

[olie brice]

>Many musicians are intimidated by anything other than 2/4, 3/4, or 4/4 (and meters and tempos divisible by 2)

this statement was true once, but jazz musicians have been dealing with odd time signatures for a long time, and I think you'd be hard pushed to find a modern new york group that only played in 3 or 4 these days.... have a listen to (this is a pretty random selection of thousands of possibles) the Brad Mehldau trio, anything with Nasheet Waits on drums, Steve Coleman etc etc etc


>7/3:
>A
>(1) 1-2-3-4-5-6-7, (2) 1-2-3-4-5-6-7, (3) 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 :|

isn't this 3 bars of 7/4 or 7/8?

[Erik Lund]

Yes Olie, it is. But Cyborg has very GOodie-like symptoms, it can only end in failure... (p.s. I studied with Nasheet - so I like you already)



Cyborg - you have now entered the realm of SPAM. I don't care if 11/7 is a joke - it is totally sad that you put together that flash video saying "it is only a joke my man" - I'm not sure - is JUST 11/7 a joke or your entire thread? because if "11/7" is a joke then surely 7/3 is - because as Olie has pointed out - your little counting is 7/4 or 7/8. If you can't program your "robots" to do that - then you really have no idea what you are doing. I can program my little metronome to play 11/16 if I want it to. So your little computer (which shows up in the videos to your little smooth-elevator music) should certainly be able to do that - if the user knows what he is doing. No shit, it can't understand 7/3 because nobody else can either. (!!!!)

Leave it alone - you have been pwned more than once now. Drop it.

[Cybergius]

Musicians, not young jazz musicians only... I think.

[Erik Lund]

Nothing in that Experimenta composition was "multi ethnic" or "multi genre".

Or exciting, or worth listening to, or in 14/6...

[Cybergius]

I counted it again, and you were right. There's no such thing. I'm sure of that. What I was thinking is that, in jazz music, there is two forms. One uses a meter like poetry meter, and the other is like prose, without any set meter.

[Cybergius]

The last lyrical work I did on the web here at Jazz Corner was strictly for the pleasure of writing.

The writer and editor are discussing this in a private chat room, the editor is saying, "I suggest we make a sex change on this, so that the FORM AND METER of our new Iambic pentameter quatrain reads as follows,

The rider was young and curious. Her horse was black and furious.
And together they did ride the midnight trail.
In the pale of the moonlit night they encountered a terrible fight
That tested their mortal strength in every detail. "

The writer then says, "Yes! That is our first quatrain! Now we need a melody for this! "

Editor says, "Something Hispanic, I think! (what a chick!)"

[Erik Lund]

you are officially crazy.

[Mike Schwartz]

fixed

Originally Posted by Erik Lund

you are officially crazy in any time signiture and in the Twilight Zone.

[Ron Thorne]

Cybergius, you haven't a clue about what constitutes a time signature, or even a beat, for that matter. Sad, really.

You are somewhat entertaining, however.

[Cybergius]

Whenever anyone says that a Jazz Musician is "CRAZY" it has always been a great compliment, for which I thank you.

[Ron Thorne]

My comments were not critical as much as observational.

Speaking of sincerity, I wouldn't quit my day gig, if I were you. Now that's as sincere as it gets.

Oh, and your money is in the mail.

[Cybergius]

I was considering coming out of retirement to do casino work, but only as a writer/director and not as stage talent. I like the genuine house band feeling and the overall sense of security that it gives all of my family and myself. (Does that sound like things are changing to you?)

About the things that bug me... I can pretty much tolerate anyone who enjoys and plays jazz. I hate getting guitar players and musicians out of trouble or out of jail (expensive) and I especially hate it when people feel like shooting at the singers and accuse them of stealing their main squeeze.

I really think that people who rant and rave on bulletin boards and chats should be permanently identified and barred by their ISP to keep them from being insulting and bothersome to themselves and others. You and you friends wouldn't have any problem with that, would you? Because, it's probably on it's way...

THE ZAP SANG, WHO ARE THE BRAIN POLICE?

As far as worthless observations go, they are only worth what we pay for them: six for nickel. I don't mind shining out through all of this stuff. Imaginary things create imaginary problems and real things create real ones.

[graypencil]

Whats going on here?

I listened to Cyber Gs "experimental" piece, and would make the following observations:

1. It is basically in 12 /8 ..there *is* no 12/6. 14/6 11/7 in any shape or form of notated music. ( Erik and I may have had our disagreements in the past, but on this one, I'm with him all the way! )

2. Harmonically, it is quite pedestrian ..no ..call a spade a spade ..its f*****g boring!

3. This BBS is filled with talented and knowlegeable folks who love to discuss music of all kinds , but also all of whom have a very low tolerance level
for BS ..

CyberG, you're approaching my limit ..

[Paul B]

I think Cybergius is actually John Cooper after a stint of electroshock therapy. If he'd just go back to afternoon drinking and Lindy Hop...

[Cybergius]

If jazz is too far out (many say it is) and if jazz musicians are crazy, then indeed, of all musicians I am "FIXED," as you so accurately stated.

[Ron Thorne]

Who's really getting pwned here ... Cybergoof or us?

No one can be this clueless!

[Mike Schwartz]

This is the slightly more pale persona of Darryl!

There is no doubt in my mind that these two unique posters are working the boards at the same time.

Darryl's in the Alley on the *colon* thread!

"Saturday Night Fever"

[Ron Thorne]

Sorry, Mike, but I see absolutely no connection between Darryl and Cybergoon!

For starters, it's pretty plain to me that CG is asexual. Plus, Darryl seems to have a sense of rhythm.

[Mike Schwartz]

Originally Posted by Ron Thorne

Sorry, Mike, but I see absolutely no connection between Darryl and Cybergoon!

For starters, it's pretty plain to me that CG is asexual. Plus, Darryl seems to have a sense of rhythm.

All the more reeson to suspect this clever actor in our midst, although the lameness & uninteresting nature of the music somewhat resembles the always popular Mike Miller, who gave us all lessons in ta, ta_ta ta's if I remember correctly and wasn't satisfied that drummers didn't expand the possibilities to his liking.

[Erik Lund]

Yeah - I've been feeling this is some sort of weird personality - but to go through making all of those "compositions" would make it very strange indeed.

My favorite line just happened though - the part about the world screaming for his scores. Are there internet hubs in insane asylums?