Should Joe Torre be fired?

[GoodSpeak]

Yes or no?

[GoodSpeak]

Jon....?


A pretty straight forward question.


Yes or no then move on.


No big thing.

[clinthopson]

I hope that the Halos don't buy MR. 0 for October.

[Chris D]

Why would they, clint, when they have an even worse October performer in Vladdy? In 60 postseason at-bats, Guerrero has batted .183 with one extra-base hit.

[Surfer]

mmmmmmmmm, minced chipotles.

[crawjo]

I think I don't really care whether the Yankees keep or get rid of Torre. I don't think it will make much difference in how their team performs either way.

That said, 12 seasons, six AL pennants, four world championships...that's an impressive run. In baseball history probably only McCarthy and Stengel had better runs than that, though maybe you could make an argument for McGraw.

If I were Torre, I'd be tempted to just retire and collect the Hall of Fame induction that is my due.

[Brian Olewnick]

Can't figure out why no one ever accused Torre of being a great manager prior to his stint with the Yankees (record: 894-1003). Curious.

[clinthopson]

Originally Posted by Chris D

Why would they, clint, when they have an even worse October performer in Vladdy? In 60 postseason at-bats, Guerrero has batted .183 with one extra-base hit.

That's one of the reasons.

[crawjo]

Originally Posted by Brian Olewnick

Can't figure out why no one ever accused Torre of being a great manager prior to his stint with the Yankees (record: 894-1003). Curious.

Well, no one ever talks about Stengel's stints managing the Boston Braves (373-491), Brooklyn Dodgers (208-251), and New York Mets (175-404) either.

[Brian Olewnick]

Yeah, how about that?

[Enforcer]

I think what Brian is saying is, Torre became a better manager in New York because he's a Bronx kind of guy, so since he was happy and more comfortable, he did a much better job there.

[Chris D]

And he got more moxie. Gotta have moxie.

[crawjo]

Originally Posted by Brian Olewnick

Yeah, how about that?

Maybe those other teams would have been even worse, or maybe Stengel's managerial style just fit perfectly with those Yankees teams. I don't think all managers are the same; I think some situations fit them better than others. And no manager is going to put up winning records with bad teams. But if you are trying to imply that Torre is just an ordinary manager who was in the right place at the right time, I think that's not doing his accomplishments enough justice.

[Noj]

I think the Yankees need new arms, not a new skipper. I'm hoping they blow it and fire Torre and then get stiffed for pitching upgrades.

[Jon Abbey]

I can argue both ways, and it's even more complicated by the fact that the free agents want him to stay, specifically Posada and Rivera. two ways to go:

1) fire Torre and hire Girardi, let A-Rod, Posada and Rivera all sign elsewhere, end up with seven first round picks in next year's draft, and go something like 83-79 next year. this plan works a lot better if Santana, Sabathia and Teixeira all actually hit free agency after 2008, but even if they don't, it'd be good to see a flood of kids in pinstripes. there would be an unbelievable uproar but you can't always listen to the people. if the choice is Mattingly instead of Girardi, I'm less excited about this plan.

2) keep everyone they can keep and go for it again next year, with an added year of experience for the young pitchers. there is close to $50 million in worthless contracts coming off the books after 2008 (Mussina/Giambi/Pavano/Farnsworth), so they'd still have flexibility there in the offseason of 2008 if any or all of those big names hit free agency.

Torre has his strengths and weaknesses, he's 67 and not quite as on top of things as one would like (a la a Francona or Girardi). if he does get rehired, I hope he gets some help managing the bullpen at least.

[Brian Olewnick]

Originally Posted by crawjo

Maybe those other teams would have been even worse, or maybe Stengel's managerial style just fit perfectly with those Yankees teams. I don't think all managers are the same; I think some situations fit them better than others. And no manager is going to put up winning records with bad teams. But if you are trying to imply that Torre is just an ordinary manager who was in the right place at the right time, I think that's not doing his accomplishments enough justice.

Well, quantify those accomplishments, then, cuz that's what I'm saying. Torre came along when that mid-90s crop of excellent players was coming into it's own and never had anything approaching a humdrum roster of players. Take away Jeter, Pettitte, ARod and another player here and there and I think his managerial record would be no different from the Blue Jays.

For my bucks, a really good manager might be worth a win or two over the course of the season, though a really terrible one could cost his team somewhat more (by doing things like bunting in the 1st inning). I guess it's possible, the further back one goes in the game's history, for a manager to have instigated some innovations that led to more runs scored or prevented and maybe Stengel did something of the sort, though I can't recall him ever being credited with such. My better guess is had he never happened to manage the Yankees, he'd just be remembered as a lovable, crazy cuss.

Personally, I think Torre's a completely mediocre manager, not terrible, not great. I'm sure he's a lovely guy and the players seems to genuinely like him as long as their names aren't Sheffield or Lofton.

But I also think that whether or not they retain ARod is about 500 times more important to their chances in the future than whether or not Torre comes back.

[edit--as Jon said, if it's a decisive factor in whether certain free agents stay, that's another matter entirely but, again, that just speaks more to thier love of the guy on a personal level.]

[Enforcer]

Brian, there are lots of teams with really good rosters who don't make the playoffs. The 2007 Tigers come to mind. They were ravaged by injuries, which they couldn't overcome. But the Yankees have made the playoffs a ridiculous number of consecutive years, even taking those things into account, including just plain bad luck. But they've found a way to make it in despite fierce competition in the division and the league. I can't quantify how much Torre had to do with that, but neither can you. I agree with crawjo, I think you might be underestimating his role.

And who cares if it's getting the players to love the guy on a personal level that makes him effective? You don't think that's valuable, if it keeps players around and prevents clubhouse conflicts that lead to players wanting to leave or not perform?

[Brian Olewnick]

Well, short of doing extremely unusual things that either work or don't, it's impossible to say for certain. iirc, sims have been run (I don't think man-love was one of the considerations) using different managerial styles (early bunting, excessive stealing, etc.) and some seem to work better than others. But most managers, it seems to me, are strategically indistinguishable from one another, the better ones adapting to the strengths and weaknesses of the team they happen to have. If Torre's responsible for causing Yankee hitters to take a lot of pitches, more power to him., I've never heard that suggested and would guess it's the players themselves who come to realize the benefits of that approach. But I just don't see him doing anything particularly unusual to his credit. If anything his use of the bullpen is hidebound. If you tell me he's been fellating ARod between innings, thus contributing to his relaxed state at the plate, well OK then.

[Jon Abbey]

it is pretty amazing that after everything, NY ended up only 2 games off of the best record in the league. on the other hand, if Detroit doesn't collapse after the break this year, NY doesn't even make the playoffs and Torre is probably already gone, even though he would have done the exact same job.

the longer this goes, the more likely it is that Torre will stay, probably with a two year deal, and that NY will try to keep all of their premium guys that they can (not Clemens, no way they go down that road again, but everyone else). the housecleaning will likely begin in earnest next offseason, and hopefully by then the line of succession to Former George will be more clear.

anyone in doubt about Steinbrenner's current mental health, this is from the cover of today's NY Post:



no way he actually gave that interview, I'm guessing maybe one of his sons did, but who knows.

[Jon Abbey]

Originally Posted by Brian Olewnick

If you tell me he's been fellating ARod between innings, thus contributing to his relaxed state at the plate, well OK then.

no, that's part of why they got Mientkiewicz.

[clinthopson]

Steinbrenner is actually trying to bring back Billy Martin.

[Enforcer]

I wouldn't expect "in-game" managerial styles to be what sets managers apart anyway. Except for the ones who hurt their teams with stupid decision making (like the first inning bunt, etc.), like Alan Trammell. But handling the clubhouse, hiring a competent staff (managers obviously have varying degrees of control over this, but still), managing the bullpen and generally having a good read of players and their health (knowing who to rest, who's really hurt, which players will or won't play through injuries, etc.), all those "intangibles" (I use this word as I cross myself and say a Hail Mary), would be where I'd expect to see a tangible (irony!) difference between managers.

[Mike Schwartz]

Originally Posted by Larry Nagel

I think what Brian is saying is, Torre became a better manager in New York because he's a Bronx kind of guy, so since he was happy and more comfortable, he did a much better job there.

Larry;
Maybe this should be on the "is what it is" thread.

With the Yanks Torre had the *horses*

[Gordon B]

Originally Posted by Brian Olewnick

Well, quantify those accomplishments, then, cuz that's what I'm saying. Torre came along when that mid-90s crop of excellent players was coming into it's own and never had anything approaching a humdrum roster of players. Take away Jeter, Pettitte, ARod and another player here and there and I think his managerial record would be no different from the Blue Jays.

For my bucks, a really good manager might be worth a win or two over the course of the season, though a really terrible one could cost his team somewhat more (by doing things like bunting in the 1st inning). I guess it's possible, the further back one goes in the game's history, for a manager to have instigated some innovations that led to more runs scored or prevented and maybe Stengel did something of the sort, though I can't recall him ever being credited with such. My better guess is had he never happened to manage the Yankees, he'd just be remembered as a lovable, crazy cuss.

Personally, I think Torre's a completely mediocre manager, not terrible, not great. I'm sure he's a lovely guy and the players seems to genuinely like him as long as their names aren't Sheffield or Lofton.

But I also think that whether or not they retain ARod is about 500 times more important to their chances in the future than whether or not Torre comes back.

[edit--as Jon said, if it's a decisive factor in whether certain free agents stay, that's another matter entirely but, again, that just speaks more to thier love of the guy on a personal level.]

I agree with everything in this post except possibly the ARod part. I don't think he's worth $30M+ per year for another 7-10 years. I thought he was worth the $25M per year when he was a 25 year old shortstop but he's a 32 year old third baseman, big difference. The money can be better spent, elsewhere.

If an MVP is worth 8 wins per season, that's only a quarter-win per five games. ARod's future performance, averaged over the next seven years, assuming they are all at 3B, will probably be worth no more than 3-4 extra wins per season over an average player. Is that worth $30M?

A-Rod quibbles aside, still an excellent post, IMO.

[GoodSpeak]

Originally Posted by Noj

I think the Yankees need new arms, not a new skipper. I'm hoping they blow it and fire Torre and then get stiffed for pitching upgrades.

I do, too.


The Yankee fans need to stop whining and firing Torre just might do that.

[GoodSpeak]

Originally Posted by Jon Abbey

it is pretty amazing that after everything, NY ended up only 2 games off of the best record in the league. on the other hand, if Detroit doesn't collapse after the break this year, NY doesn't even make the playoffs and Torre is probably already gone, even though he would have done the exact same job.

the longer this goes, the more likely it is that Torre will stay, probably with a two year deal, and that NY will try to keep all of their premium guys that they can (not Clemens, no way they go down that road again, but everyone else). the housecleaning will likely begin in earnest next offseason, and hopefully by then the line of succession to Former George will be more clear.

anyone in doubt about Steinbrenner's current mental health, this is from the cover of today's NY Post:



no way he actually gave that interview, I'm guessing maybe one of his sons did, but who knows.

So! What's your vote, Jon?


Yes or No?

[Mike Schwartz]

Check out Goody, both baiting and calling a guy out who has him on ignore

[GoodSpeak]

Originally Posted by Mike Schwartz

Check out Goody, both baiting and calling a guy out who has him on ignore

It's a straight forward question, Mike.


Yes or no.


No big deal.


[There must be an echo in this place]

[Enforcer]

Originally Posted by Gordon B

If an MVP is worth 8 wins per season, that's only a quarter-win per five games. ARod's future performance, averaged over the next seven years, assuming they are all at 3B, will probably be worth no more than 3-4 extra wins per season over an average player. Is that worth $30M?

Of course, Gordon. That's the difference between making and not making the playoffs this year for the Yankees, and quite possibly next year, too.

You and Brian are having off nights.

[GoodSpeak]

They didn't make it because they didn't play well.




Such a mystery.