Sharia in the U.K.

[groover]

I guess it's inevitable.

Islamic extremists call for Sharia law in the UK

http://www.socialcohesion.co.uk/blog...ll_for_sh.html

Former senior members of al-Muhajiroun, formerly one of the most extreme Islamist groups in the UK, have siezed on the controversy over the Archbishop of Canterbury's remarks on Sharia law to rally their followers. A press release issued by Anjem Choudary on Friday 8 February said that a partial implementation of Sharia law cannot work and that true Sharia law can only be implemented through a Caliphate:
"The two systems of secularism and Islam are diametrically opposed, you cannot say that sovereignty and supremacy is for man on the one hand and also that sovereignty belongs to Allah on the other. One must take precedence, and that is Islam."

The press release also said that Choudary, previously one of the most high-profile members of al-Muhajiroun before it disbanded in 2005, would be holding a meeting on the subject 'Britain Under Islam' at Walthamstow on Saturday 9 February.

The press release also said the archbishops' remarks were part of a plot to promote secularism among British Muslims:

"Muslims therefore must believe that the comments of the archbishop are designed to take them away from the true understanding of Islam and to adopt his own religion of secularism. This is also evident in his attack against the penal system implemented in some Muslim countries."

Choudary also told The Telegraph that :

"Sharia has been promised by the Prophet Mohammed and it will come either by embracing Islam because it is the fastest growing religion in the country or by an Islamic country conquering Britain or by elements embracing Islam and imposing it."

Although al-Muhajiroun was estimated to have had as many as several thousand members and supporters in the late 1990s, Anjem Choudary today has probably less than a 100 followers.

Posted by James Brandon on February 11, 2008 11:35 AM | Permalink

[Jeffrey Wozniak]

Europe has been caving to the Muslim extremists right along. It only stands to reason that they would try and take it to the next level.

Given the track record of bowing to the Muslim extremists I give this a 50-50 shot at success.

[groover]

This is worth reading, too, if you haven't already:

To Hell With the Archbishop of Canterbury
Rowan Williams' dangerous claptrap about "plural jurisdiction."

By Christopher Hitchens
Posted Monday, Feb. 11, 2008, at 12:27 PM ET
Article URL: http://www.slate.com/id/2184186/

It is alarming the extent to which they've already abandoned adherence to equal rights of individuals under the law in the U.K.

[Pedantic Wretch]

Not that these threads merit any response at all, but did you actually read the final sentence in the first piece you quoted:

Although al-Muhajiroun was estimated to have had as many as several thousand members and supporters in the late 1990s, Anjem Choudary today has probably less than a 100 followers.

One might as well argue that the KKK are about to take over America.

[Brian Olewnick]

Yeah, but, but...it's 100 really, really committed supporters.

[groover]

100 Muslims aren't too dangerous, I agree, as long as they don't know how to fly planes, I guess.

And the honor killings and other routine abuse of women in Muslim neighborhoods aren't your problem, I suppose.

Do you support the ArchBishop then, P.W.?

[Monte Smith]

I like what The Sun said about Rowan Williams. That it is easy to dismiss the Archbishop as a silly, old goat but that what he actually is is a danger to the nation. Yeah, sharia...good idea, Rev.

[Pedantic Wretch]

Originally Posted by groover

Do you support the ArchBishop then, P.W.?

No, I don't support any bishops, no matter how arch.

[groover]

This is interesting.

http://www.freedomszone.com/archives...king_to_je.php

February 7, 2007
Muslim Students Flocking To Jewish School In UK

Here's a great example of true interfaith cooperation and appreciation that I can't help but notice isn't getting much MSM attention...




Devout Muslim parents in Birmingham, England are going through all sorts of hoops, including moving into the school's catchment area, to get their children into the King David school to learn Hebrew, wave Israeli flags on independence day and hang out with the people that many other Muslims hate more than anyone in the world (although the print source frames this in a typically PC fashion - saying instead, "... the people some would have us believe that they hate more than anyone in the world."):

It's infant prize day at King David School, a state primary in Moseley, Birmingham. The children sit cross-legged on the floor, their parents fiddling with their video cameras. The head, Steve Langford, is wearing a Sesame Street tie.

A typical end-of-term school event, then. But at King David there's a twist that gives it a claim to be one of the most extraordinary schools in the country: King David is a strictly Jewish school. Judaism is the only religion taught. There's a synagogue on site. The children learn modern Hebrew - Ivrit - the language of Israel. And they celebrate Israeli independence day.

But half the 247 pupils at the 40-year-old local authority-supported school are Muslim, and apparently the Muslim parents go through all sorts of hoops, including moving into the school's catchment area, to get their children into King David to learn Hebrew, wave Israeli flags on independence day and hang out with the people some would have us believe that they hate more than anyone in the world.

The Muslim parents, mostly devout and many of the women wearing the hijab, say they love the ethos of the school, and even the kosher school lunches, which are suitable because halal and kosher dietary rules are virtually identical. The school is also respectful to Islam, setting aside a prayer room for the children and supplying Muslim teachers during Ramadan. At Eid, the Muslim children are wished Eid Mubarak in assembly, and all year round, if they wish, can wear a kufi (hat). Amazingly, dozens of the Muslim children choose instead to wear the Jewish kipah.

At the prize morning Carol Cooper, the RE teacher, says: "Boker tov," (Ivrit for "Good morning").

"Good morning Mrs Cooper," the children chant in reply. The entire school, Muslims, Jews, plus the handful of Christians and Sikhs then say the Shema, the holiest Jewish prayer, all together.

If only this could be the norm instead of a rare exception. Extremists have all but taken over the headlines and the mainstream practices of too many Muslims. But people of true faith that reject extremist views gain far more by being and learning together than by segregating themselves from society. Assimilation and interfaith cooperation is paramount to having true peace. As Andrew Brehm says in his comment at The Sudanese Thinker, ""the American "trick" of keeping religion away from schools doesn't work as well as acknowledging religions. My impression is also that religious Muslims and religious Jews (and religious Christians) have fewer problems with each other than the non-religious varieties."



On the other hand, sadly, there's a more pertinent perspective from another commenter at The Sudanese Thinker:

And the muslim school which has Jewish parents rushing to enlist their kids there because of the high level of tolerance and quality of education is ... where exactly?

Just asking ...

The big qualifier is of course the existence of a "Muslim school which has Jewish parents rushing to enlist their kids there because of the high level of tolerance and quality of education." If there are such schools out there we need to hear about them, and so do the millions of Muslims that follow extremists' positions, and the Christians and Jews that are threatened by Muslim extremists, world wide. The world needs far more examples of schools like King David in Birmingham, England, and it needs them now!

[Jeffrey Wozniak]

As long as the teachers don't let the Muslim kids name a teddy bear Mohammed.

[Nim Chimpsky]

Originally Posted by groover

And the honor killings and other routine abuse of women in Muslim neighborhoods aren't your problem, I suppose.

Once again you've got it all wrong. In the U.K. we don't have honor killings, we have honour killings. Nor do we have Muslim neighborhoods, we have Muslim neighbourhoods. I can see how you made the mistake but they really are totally different.

[burning dog]

Williams is suggesting Sharia Law for civil cases, like the Jewish courts that already exist in the UK and have for centuries.

Edit

Beth Din courts in the UK

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7233040.stm


I disagree with the Bish but he wasn't condoning stoning or the cutting off of hands as some would have us think.

[Al in NYC]

Originally Posted by burning dog

like the Jewish courts that already exist in the UK and have for centuries.

...and exist right here in NYC, and in several other American cities. Where I don't see them as any great threat to American jurisprudence.

Hitchens overreacts ridiculously as usual, in a way that tells one more about his own prejudices than it does to give any useful information about the issue at hand. But the archbishop is a doddering old fool, although I think he really cares more about keeping the Church of England officially established - and funded - than he does about Muslims and sharia.

[Nim Chimpsky]

Originally Posted by freedomszone.com groover

The world needs far more examples of schools like King David in Birmingham, England, and it needs them now!

On the contrary. The rise of faith schools in Britain under Tony Blair has caused all kinds of problems that didn't exist before the rules were relaxed.

[groover]

Originally Posted by Nim Chimpsky

Once again you've got it all wrong. In the U.K. we don't have honor killings, we have honour killings. Nor do we have Muslim neighborhoods, we have Muslim neighbourhoods. I can see how you made the mistake but they really are totally different.

Thanks for the correction, Nim.

[Root Doctor]

Originally Posted by Pedantic Wretch

One might as well argue that the KKK are about to take over America.

The KKK was once a substantial organization in the US, with nearly 6 million members. Societal disapproval of its beliefs and actions led to its current place at the margins of American society.

[Gary Sisco]

It still has many thousands, though. And if its related neofascoid but separate organizations are factored in, they would number still in the low seven digits. The Klan itself is comprised of multiple outfits. There isn't any one KKK anymore, nor any one neonazi organization. There are multiples of each.

[Root Doctor]

Originally Posted by Gary Sisco

It still has many thousands, though. And if its related neofascoid but separate organizations are factored in, they would number still in the low seven digits. The Klan itself is comprised of multiple outfits. There isn't any one KKK anymore, nor any one neonazi organization. There are multiples of each.

"Since the 1970s the Klan has been greatly weakened by internal conflicts, court cases, a seemingly endless series of splits and government infiltration. While some factions have preserved an openly racist and militant approach, others have tried to enter the mainstream, cloaking their racism as mere "civil rights for whites." Today, the Center estimates that there are between 5,000 and 8,000 Klan members, split among dozens of different — and often warring — organizations that use the Klan name."

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/map/hate.jsp?T=35&m=5

[Scott Dolan]

Oopz...

[groover]

Originally Posted by Root Doctor

The KKK was once a substantial organization in the US, with nearly 6 million members. Societal disapproval of its beliefs and actions led to its current place at the margins of American society.

I wonder if they'll yet field an independent candidate this year for the far right who can't stomach McCain.

[Gary Sisco]

Originally Posted by Root Doctor

"Since the 1970s the Klan has been greatly weakened by internal conflicts, court cases, a seemingly endless series of splits and government infiltration. While some factions have preserved an openly racist and militant approach, others have tried to enter the mainstream, cloaking their racism as mere "civil rights for whites." Today, the Center estimates that there are between 5,000 and 8,000 Klan members, split among dozens of different — and often warring — organizations that use the Klan name."

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/map/hate.jsp?T=35&m=5

Like I said, they still have thousands.

And the non-Klan neonazis have thousands more.

And then there are those with the same politics but without a card in their wallets -- *many* thousands more. You don't have to know you're a fascist to be one.

In addition, unlike many of their opponents, these outfits are armed.

If there were armed left organizations with the same numbers, the gubmint would go berserk on them.

[burning dog]

Originally Posted by Al in NYC

...and exist right here in NYC, and in several other American cities. Where I don't see them as any great threat to American jurisprudence.

Hitchens overreacts ridiculously as usual, in a way that tells one more about his own prejudices than it does to give any useful information about the issue at hand. But the archbishop is a doddering old fool, although I think he really cares more about keeping the Church of England officially established - and funded - than he does about Muslims and sharia.

I agree he is concerned about the CoE remaining established, I'd prefer it were disestablished.

I think a lot of younger British Muslims, not just those who are "lasped" but many who attend mosques, would be against Sharia Law being introduced in however mild a form.

[groover]

Originally Posted by burning dog

I think a lot of younger British Muslims, not just those who are "lasped" but many who attend mosques, would be against Sharia Law being introduced in however mild a form.

I'm sure a lot do, but British Muslim youth actually tend to be more conservative than their elders.

More young Muslims back sharia, says poll

• Stephen Bates and agencies
• The Guardian,
• Monday January 29 2007

About this article

This article appeared in the Guardian on Monday January 29 2007 on p5 of the UK news and analysis section. It was last updated at 00:10 on January 29 2007.


A growing minority of young Muslims are inspired by political Islam and feel they have less in common with non-Muslims than their parents do, a survey reveals today. The poll, carried out for the conservative-leaning Policy Exchange thinktank, found support for Sharia law, Islamic schools and wearing the veil in public is significantly stronger among young Muslims than their parents.

In the survey of 1,003 Muslims by the polling company Populus through internet and telephone questionnaires, nearly 60% said they would prefer to live under British law, while 37% of 16 to 24-year-olds said they would prefer sharia law, against 17% of those over 55. Eighty-six per cent said their religion was the most important thing in their lives. Nearly a third of 16 to 24-year-olds believed that those converting to another religion should be executed, while less than a fifth of those over 55 believed the same. The survey claimed that British authorities and some Muslim groups have exaggerated the problem of Islamophobia and fuelled a sense of victimhood among some Muslims: 84% said they believed they had been well treated in British society, though only 28% thought the authorities had gone over the top in trying not to offend Muslims. Munira Mirza, a doctoral student at Kent University who wrote the report, said: "The government should engage with Muslims as citizens, not through their religious identity."

[burning dog]

Originally Posted by groover

I'm sure a lot do, but British Muslim youth actually tend to be more conservative than their elders.

I guess that's not surprising in the 16-24 age group, but it is disturbing. I was thinking more of the 30 -40 age group of my acquantance - people with kids at school and a mortgage.

[Scott Dolan]

Originally Posted by Root Doctor

"Since the 1970s the Klan has been greatly weakened by internal conflicts, court cases, a seemingly endless series of splits and government infiltration. While some factions have preserved an openly racist and militant approach, others have tried to enter the mainstream, cloaking their racism as mere "civil rights for whites." Today, the Center estimates that there are between 5,000 and 8,000 Klan members, split among dozens of different — and often warring — organizations that use the Klan name."

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/map/hate.jsp?T=35&m=5

I'm sure it's no stretch to say that there are at least 990,000+ who weren't accounted for.

[Root Doctor]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

I'm sure it's no stretch to say that there are at least 990,000+ who weren't accounted for.

They're hard to count with all those white hoods.

[Hudson Boy]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Wozniak

As long as the teachers don't let the Muslim kids name a teddy bear Mohammed.

Now they've got the Hamas Bunny on Gaza TV, who declares "I will eat Jews".
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_w...s_kids_-1.html

[Pedantic Wretch]

There was a documentary on TV here a few years ago about Tom Metzger, one-time Grand Dragon in California and subsequent founder of White Aryan Resistance. The programme presented him as a pathetic and delusional clown, but I agree one should not take neo-Nazi organisations lightly. The same episode also featured the 'Nazi Olsen twins' who sing as the pop duo Prussian Blue.

The initial strength of the Ku Klux Klan relied on a living mythology about the Civil War betrayal of the Old South (at least as I understand it from The Birth of a Nation), a mythology which no longer has any significant cultural legitimacy in the wake of the Civil Rights era. Similarly, the ideas of fundamentalist Islam have no mainstream cultural legitimacy in Europe, for all the tabloid scare stories claiming the contrary; they could never become nationally dominant in a liberal-capitalist society revolving around hedonistic consumption. However, one of the major sources of grievance - Anglo-American/Israeli military presence in the Middle East - continues to give strength to the religion's political minority.

[groover]

Originally Posted by Pedantic Wretch

However, one of the major sources of grievance - Anglo-American/Israeli military presence in the Middle East - continues to give strength to the religion's political minority.

As long as that political minority is committed to Israel's destruction, Israel must maintain a military presence to survive. Israel has just as much right to it's sovereignty as England does.

[Monte Smith]

I think you guys give this Williams prick too much credit by suggesting he has an interest in defending the institution that he has been named head of. I don't think he has. I think he is too groovy to look to the interests of his land's traditional faith as urgent, when there are such beguiling and violent innovations to embrace, and when the whole idea of religion has become so embarrassing in Europe. Religion is for the simple Mohammedan immigrants, who are harmless, or for the Americans, who are vile.

I'm not a big fan of bishops or clergy, myself. Read too much presbyterianism in Scott. But even Fulgencia Maeve Myfanwy can spell out a fundamental lesson for Dr Rowan Feelgood.