Recent Braxton alumni

[Dan G]

I'm curious about what people think about the players AB has used in the past 10 - 15 years. There's been a bit of discussion here about Mary Halvorsen, but what about people like Tyler Ho Bynum? Or James Fei? Steve Lehman? Aaron Siegel? Anything these guys have done that make them stand out? Are they going to reach the levels of greatness that other people who played with him have (i.e. Hemingway, Crispell, Holland, Lindberg, etc.)?

I think there are two main differences in the current v. past situation. In the past, many of those 'sidemen' were already established on their own. Now, he's using students quite often, who don't have any public history. A few exceptions, such as Kevin Norton. But even with him, I think that he has advanced quite a bit from his time with Braxton. I also think Joe Fonda really got good over the years. Not sure if either of them still play with Braxton though.

The other difference is the music - it might be harder to stand out in the 12tet playing GTM than it was in the quartets from the 70s and 80s.

Any opinions or insight?

[rene]

Steve Lehman came out with very strong albums recently. His album 'Interface' (Clean Feed 2003) which feature his Camouflage Trio, Mark Dresser (b) and Pheeroan Aklaff (d) is high-energy stuff and very engaging. Ditto with his 2007 release 'On Meaning' does not disappoint.

haven't gotten to his new live set, 'Manifold' yet but heard many positive reviews about it.

[Vince Kargatis]

James Fei is pretty active - his Alto Quartets is very cool, recommended.

rene's comments on Lehman seconded.

[Paul B]

I've seen Bynum live in a couple of contexts, and I think he has a nice thing going. Don't own any of his records, but may check them out at some point.

Braxton was still on the rise when he had his great groups with Hemingway, Crispell, et al., and though as Dan says they were already established I think it's safe to say their time with Braxton substantially boosted their careers. I'm not sure Braxton is in the position these days to have the same effect on the younger players he's recently mentored; time will tell.

[ericdevin]

Regarding those who played on the 12+1tet box:

Nicole Mitchell is probably most similar to the Lindberg/Crispell group in having an established career, having played in Chicago for more than a decade. To that end, she is probably the most developed and unique voice. Her stuff is really remarkable, especially her trio with Hamid Drake and Harrison Bankhead. She is a great composer as well, as her Xenogenesis Suite, performed at Vision last year was exceedingly impressive. Probably the best flautist in the realm of improvised jazz.

Mary Halvorson is a great guitar player, coming from the direction of Joe Morris but in a very unique fashion. See the thread on her for more...

Jessica Pavone is great in duo with Halvorson, and in William Parker's Double Quartet, but I haven't heard much else from her other than some solo stuff, which is fantastic. I have liked her stuff though, as viola is more difficult than violin to integrate into jazz. Mat Maneri is the only precedent and they are doing very different things. She could develop, it's hard to say because she hasn't had an album as a leader with her compositions yet.

Aaron Siegel I have a solo percussion set by, and he is fairly interesting, I don't think he has done enough to have a verdict handed down yet.

THB has a great duo record with Tomas Fujiwara, but I haven't heard more from him to say more. The rest of the folks I know little to nothing about, with the exception of...

Steve Lehman has never done anything for me; his set with Vijay Iyer and Tyshawn Sorey at last year's Vision Festival was pretty unexciting and dry for me. I also have his recent album "On Meaning," which is better, but his electro-acoustic stuff is boring and cliche-laden, really to be avoided at all costs. I hate to badmouth musicians, but Lehman is one newer player who is inexplicably being hyped. I think he ends up coming off as a Braxton/Leo Smith wannabe (in the sense of their playing being so dry and acerbic) who probably won't ever get there in terms of compositional abilities because he hasn't shown the ability to work at a group or even a format long enough with the exception of Fieldwork, who I just don't care for. Can someone that likes him be more explicit as to why they do? Again, I don't like to be a mudslinger, I just don't understand his popularity.

Eric

[Bill Barton]

Bynum's playing is superb on the new Jason Kao Hwang/Edge disc Stories Before Within.

[mtaylorjazz]

Just played at the Jazz Gallery with Taylor Ho Bynum's new group Positive Catastrophe. He sounded great, as always. I love that he has a very personal and unique approach to the horn.

Besides, together we make a great Wheel of Fortune puzzle. You know, the "before and afters"? Where the answer puts together two terms that have a common word to pivot on.

We'd be "Mark Taylor Ho Bynum"

I think I'll change my name...

[rene]

Originally Posted by ericdevin

Steve Lehman has never done anything for me; his set with Vijay Iyer and Tyshawn Sorey at last year's Vision Festival was pretty unexciting and dry for me. I also have his recent album "On Meaning," which is better, but his electro-acoustic stuff is boring and cliche-laden, really to be avoided at all costs. I hate to badmouth musicians, but Lehman is one newer player who is inexplicably being hyped. I think he ends up coming off as a Braxton/Leo Smith wannabe (in the sense of their playing being so dry and acerbic) who probably won't ever get there in terms of compositional abilities because he hasn't shown the ability to work at a group or even a format long enough with the exception of Fieldwork, who I just don't care for. Can someone that likes him be more explicit as to why they do? Again, I don't like to be a mudslinger, I just don't understand his popularity.

Eric

Well we obviously have differrent takes on Lehman. i'm basing my appreciation from the only 2 records i have above and i find those music engaging, imaginative and with lot of chops. dunno why you compare him to Braxton/Leo Smith which you describe their playing as dry and ascerbic but that doesn't apply to Lehman imo, because he's making the music happen and he's not a bit lacking in intensity and passion.

Do you own the 'Interface' album? the level of interaction with Aklaff and Dresser was of quality and the compositions were very well thought of and on the mark in its spontaneity. Re: your dig on his compositional abilities, if you just found the time to read some write ups on him, i'm quoting here..."Lehman has written pieces for large orchestra and chamber ensembles which have been performed by the Furious Ensemble, the Janacek Philharmonic, Marilyn Nonken, and members of Ensemble Sospeso, among others. He has received grants from the World Music Institute, the Huddersfield Contemporary Music Festival, the Ostrava New Music Days Festival and the prestigious Fulbright Grant. In the Fall of 2002, Lehman joined the faculty at the Paris Conservatory where he teached an undergraduate course on current trends in improvised music..." Now, that's saying something.

Lehman for me is the real deal... far from dry and cliche-laden as you make him out to be.

well, to each his own.

[ericdevin]

Rene-

I appreciate that Lehman has done a lot of different stuff, but that is part of my issue with him; he doesn't or hasn't developed working groups or modes in which to develop his compositional chops into a unique overarching sound. Some of my favorite composers in jazz are John Zorn and William Parker, both of whom have dedicated groups with which to work through compositions and one of their pieces, no matter what the instrumentation is almost always very easy to recognize. Perhaps this a bit unfair as Lehman is only 30 or so, but I think age isn't the factor here but rather point in career paths. What irks me is that Lehman has a plethora of albums as a leader but almost nothing as a sideman. Zorn had Masada and on, Parker had In Order To Survive and on.

My criticism of his material being cliche-laden applies only to his electro-acoustic stuff. In terms of fire and passion, Charles Gayle, Fred Anderson, Julius Hemphill, Sabir Mateen, Joe McPhee, Matana Roberts, these are musicians that have this. The dry and acerbic description isn't at all a dig; listen to a Leo Smith solo album and you'll know what I mean. I think their playing in that musical idiom is superb, but that Lehman hasn't developed to that extent yet. I'm not saying he won't, but the hype that he gets doesn't seem to match the results as yet. I like Dresser and AkLaff. Maybe I'll try to track down that record. In any event, thanks for the info; it has made me think a little more.

Eric

[rene]

Hi Eric--

You know what? Certain ideas about jazz are probably biased or out-moded.

Who said that one has to have or develop working groups or modes in order to develop his compositions into his own sound? He actually does have rotating members of his own group that include Drew Gress, Mark Shim, Eric McPherson, Chris Dingman and Tyshawn Sorey. However, Lehman has also collaborated with the likes of those you mentioned like Nasheet Waits, William Parker, Roy Campbell, Oliver Lake, Mark Helias, Andrew Hill, Michelle Rosewoman, etc., people who mostly didn’t have their own groups at the outset but who started playing with each other and later developed their own unique voices. For me, the greatness he has, doesn't lie in his ability (or lack thereof) to develop a working group but in his ability to play and compose. He is no Vandermark in setting up diverse groups but he still is a well respected composer and with chops to boot. So, he does have a plethora of albums as a leader and nothing as a sideman. But what’s wrong with that?

Imho, how one develops his sound is conveyed thru his exposure with different mindsets of people and approaches and not necessarily with being a leader or a sideman or from any dedicated group. Having teachers to work with as diverse as Anthony Braxton and Jackie Mclean has also helped his maturity as a composer. He has his own agenda and I think we should leave it as it is. Your expectation of him are too high as he is wading to a direction different from yours and i think it isn't fair.

He probably isn’t of the stature of an Anderson, Hemphill, Vandermark, Gayle, McPhee just yet but he’ll get there…

[olie brice]

Steve Lehman's 'Manifold' and Taylor Ho Bynum's 'the middle picture' were two of last year's most interesting and moving releases, in my opinion. I reccomend 'manifold' to anyone who's only checked out 'on meaning', I think its the better of his 2 new releases...

[jackie26]

I went to high school with Steve (Lehman) and he's a friend, so I'll admit I'm biased, but here are some facts to beef up the discussion --- perhaps of interest to Eric who seems to be basing hi judgments on some misnomers:

SOME RECORDINGS OF LEHMAN AS SIDEMAN:

Anthony Braxton 12+1tet
Liberty Ellman Sextet
Kevin Norton Quintet
Kevin O'Neil Quartet

SOME UNRECORDED/RECORDED SIDEMAN WORK:

Oliver Lake Big Band
Meshell Ndegeocello Group
Dave Burrell Echo-Peace
Michele Rosewoman's Quintessence
Anthony Braxton 12+1
Liberty Ellman
Fieldwork (Invited to co-lead by Vijay Iyer and Eliot Kavvee)

GROUPS:

Steve Lehman Quintet 2002-2008 --- see Artificial Light & On Meaning
Fieldwork 2004-2008

I guess Steve should have started his own group when he was 18 instead of 24 and stuck with it...like Zorn and Hemmingway and Linberg and Braxton did, right? Oh I forgot, none of those guys did that either. Nudge Nudge. Wink Wink.

Also FWIW, how much fire someone plays with is probably and aesthetic issue rather than empirical --- but Joe McPhee, Ken Vandermark, and Sabir Mateen would be eaten alive by the rhythmic/harmonic complexity that Steve navigate with great aplomb in Fieldwork and his own groups....AND....he can throw down with the like of Dresser, akLaff, Dave Burrell, and William Parker to boot.....maybe that's why Braxton's been using him for ten years...unlike any of the other saxophonists he's ever worked with (save Jame Fei).

OK, I stuck up for my boy on here as per usual. Let's at least start with the facts shall we?

[gonzo]

i dig lehman in all his groups and i'm not even his buddy. i'd love to see his solo shows.

[ericdevin]

Jackie-

Point taken regarding sideman work, but if a group is unrecorded and plays infrequently, how is that part of this argument? As for KV, Sabir and Joe not being able to "navigate" harmonic and rhythmic complexity, have you heard the Vandermark 5? Especially since Fred Lonberg-Holm replaced Jeb Bishop, that group is ridiculously tight, same goes for FME.

McPhee doesn't deal in that tight and complex compositional idiom, so what he could or couldn't do is neither here nor there. It's like asking if Billy Bang could play in the Met's pit orchestra. He probably could, but it's not his chosen mode of expression. Also, could Steve record a solo album (without resorting to gimmickry and electronics) that is as compelling as any of those that McPhee has released? Doubtful, very doubtful. Joe McPhee is a musician about whom it has been said, when he plays, you hear him, not the instrument.

Sabir's compositions (I doubt you've heard any of his three albums as a leader, they are severely underheard) are equally complex, and his duo work with Sunny Murray is also along the same lines, even if it is free improv.

You haven't listened to those cats and it's painfully obvious. It's one thing for me to say I don't understand why Lehman is acclaimed the way he is (even as I acknowledge he may yet make a strong mark on jazz), it is another thing entirely to disrespect musicians on the level of Sabir, Ken + Joe. Biased, indeed.

[Dick Bowman]

I remember the Vision Festival performance by Dave Burrell with Sabir Mateen and Steve Lehmann - there were some rumblings that it might appear on CD some day. If it did I'd be interested to rehear - formed some opinions at the time, but I'd like to rely on something other than memory.

[jackie26]

Well, in my defense, I actually know the work of McPhee and Vandermark and Sabir quite well. Vnadermark is hard not to hear, though I actually like the stuff with his Boston crew (Nate McBride, etc.) a bit better. I love Joe's playing, and have been listening to Trio X and his Hat Hut stuff (on trumpet!) for a long time. I will admit I don't know Sabir's stuff as a leader, but have been checking out Test for a long time and heard him with William Parker and other several times live. He is amazing also. Apology accepted, Eric. Smile.

I just meant to point out that Steve has shown that he can make it work, and work well in the world of all those guys, and in contexts as compositionally tough as Fieldwork and his quintet and in Liberty Ellman's music for example. his album "Demian" is not a solo record by the way, though he does take amazing unaccompanied solo soprano solos on both of his Clean Feed records.

You're perhaps not a musician, Eric, so I may have been too vague talking about complexity. Of course, ALL music has complexity, and of course the KV5 can be super tight, but KV, nor Sabir, nor McPhee have ever worked in contexts with odd/changing meters, for example, where they have to take great heartfelt solos AND stay on the form and stay connected to it. Maybe they could and will.....the world is waiting.

BTW, Steve has also done some amazing work with electronics --- don't think anyone else mentioned has so far (Vandermark?) --- if you don't like "Demian" (???) check out his solo stuff with computer programming posted all over the web, at his site for example. Anyone else want to chime in?

[Vince Kargatis]

Originally Posted by jackie26

but KV, nor Sabir, nor McPhee have ever worked in contexts with odd/changing meters, for example, where they have to take great heartfelt solos AND stay on the form and stay connected to it. Maybe they could and will.....the world is waiting.

Which world is this, exactly? How many people live in it? I'd be shocked if anyone reading found these kinds of comparisons useful. I can imagine comparing how Lehman, Steve Coleman, and Greg Osby work(ed) in the context of changing meters, but grabbing random players connected not by musical endeavor, but by one fan's tastes, and setting up some judgmental comparisons means next to nothing.

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by jackie26

You're perhaps not a musician, Eric, so I may have been too vague talking about complexity. Of course, ALL music has complexity, and of course the KV5 can be super tight, but KV, nor Sabir, nor McPhee have ever worked in contexts with odd/changing meters, for example, where they have to take great heartfelt solos AND stay on the form and stay connected to it. Maybe they could and will.....the world is waiting.

I was going to jump in here and say more or less what you just did.

Originally Posted by Vince Kargatis

Which world is this, exactly? How many people live in it? I'd be shocked if anyone reading found these kinds of comparisons useful. I can imagine comparing how Lehman, Steve Coleman, and Greg Osby work(ed) in the context of changing meters, but grabbing random players connected not by musical endeavor, but by one fan's tastes, and setting up some judgmental comparisons means next to nothing.

Plenty of people find them useful, and the comparisons do mean something. You don't think questions of metric, rhythmic, and harmonic complexity matter? These things have nothing to do with taste, they're objective measures by which music can be looked at, studied, and compared. As usual, whenever you dive in on topics like this your comments are misguided.

Mateen is a fine player, I guess, though I don't care for him. That aside, that last thing I'd ever claim is that his work is "complex." Same with McPhee, though I like his work a little more.

If you want complex, look at a Braxton score, or some Tim Berne charts.

[Frank Leo]

It's always dangerous comparing apples and oranges, even if on the surface the observation bears weight. Neither Sabir, Joe, nor Vandermark would probably feel comfortable in the contexts devised by Lehman--and perhaps Lehman can play in their bag--but so what? He doesn't need to be compared to other players; he's his own thing, operating in his own temporal space.

Lehman's electronic stuff that I've heard seems based on a shallow understanding of the resources at his disposal. Of course, that was a few albums ago. I'd be surprised if he hasn't grown. Fieldwork is an amazing accomplishment, if not exactly my cup of tea. In toto, he's unquestionably gifted, whether or not I dig what he does (sometimes I do, sometimes I don't).

[Vince Kargatis]

Originally Posted by Paul B

You don't think questions of metric, rhythmic, and harmonic complexity matter? These things have nothing to do with taste, they're objective measures by which music can be looked at, studied, and compared.

They matter in that they affect how the music sounds like, of course. (Why you took my post to indicate a position on complexity in music, I have no idea.) Do you advocate that they matter in other ways? You yourself explicitly state they have nothing to do with taste. How do they "matter" when comparing how someone judges quality, or in how someone likes the music? In what way do you find it useful to compare Lehman's work and McPhee's work, outside of simply noting that the complexity levels of their chosen areas differ significantly?

Something like "Joe McPhee, Ken Vandermark, and Sabir Mateen would be eaten alive by the rhythmic/harmonic complexity that Steve navigate with great aplomb" looks like nothing less than a head-to-head-competition kinda statement, something I'd hope would be irrelevant to any experienced listener.

[jackie26]

Well, to resume...

This thread started being about new Braxton alum making a mark. Clearly a ton of people know Steve Lehman's work (and Bynum's) and most seem to find it quite important. So I guess the answer to that one is a resounding YES.

Then it turned to a discussion of why Lehman has been getting "hype." Again, many seem to understand what the fuss is about, and it seems safe to say that he's part of a very small collection of players capable of making important music with everyone from Dave Burrell, to Vijay Iyer, to Braxton, to Meshell Ndegeocelo, to computers! That in itself makes him stand out in the pack, whether you likes his music or not.

Finally we have the energy music vs. complexity comparison. Probably not that useful as many have pointed out. Though one can at least reflect on the implications on the fact that people like Steve, and Liberty Ellman, and Vijay Iyer, and Tyshawn Sorey and a couple others have shown not only that they have their own musical voice, but that they can engage with a vast array of musical communities (remember music is made by PEOPLE) in a way that some of the older musicians mentioned have not yet shown.

Finally, when I said "the world is waiting." I only meant that what ever these people put forward will be received with enthusiasm and then judged on its own merits. And I'm Audi 5000!

[shrugs]

but ta lot weren't alum's

Holland, Altschul, Rivers, Teitelbaum,Wheeler, Wadada and all the others.

and they didn't have iPods and cell phones and couldn't e-mail or text msg.