... dancing about architecture ...

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

I've heard and assumed for some time that Thelonious Monk was the source of the quote: "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture."

But does anybody here actually have a source for this?

It appears Monk is one of many possible sources for the quote, with the firmest current claim perhaps belonging to Elvis Costello.

http://www.pacifier.com/~ascott/they/tamildaa.htm

[groover]

I doubt it was Monk, but either way, it's a sophomoric statement.

Writing about music is like writing about any other physical art form. It can be done effectively, but not by amateurs, for the most part. The statement sounds like sour grapes from someone who can't handle critical review.

[Vince Kargatis]

The linked page is clear enough - it seems likely that the quote will never be convincingly attributed. I'd regard any sourceless claim to be completely suspect, no better than an emailed urban legend.

[Paul B]

I've heard the Monk attribution as well; will have to dig around a bit to see if I can find it.

I don't see it as sophomoric or sour grapes. It's true that music can be written about, but generally music writers fall into two camps: people who can write about its technical aspects (harmony, structure, etc.) and those who write from a more impressionistic stance, which is were most fans and critics find themselves. Some people shine at this; Whitney Balliett is a great example. Both approaches have value, but in the end they each come up short in some way. The best way to grasp music is to play it.

[groover]

True, Paul, but writing about music is more like writing about architecture, or sports. It can be done effectively, both technically and impressionistically. Music is for listening to as well as dancing to.

People who can't play don't have any other outlet than dancing or talking to express their reaction, and most musicians would prefer they write down their thoughts rather than talk during a performance. If you can't play, the best way to grasp music is to listen. Then you can write about it to encourage others to listen.

The limitations of the written word are obvious, but it's silly and facile to dismiss it as valueless. Wouldn't be much point to this forum if it were.

[Paul B]

I never said it was valueless, I'm merely agreeing with the tenor of the "dancing" comment. I agree it can be done effectively, just saying that music writing will always fall short in some way, since the technical approach fails to impart the intangibles about a great performance, and the impressionistic approach often doesn't impart much real information. Neither can truly convey the experience of playing. That said, I'm in no way saying people shouldn't write about music, or read about it. It's all part of the program.

[Gentle Giant]

I think it's easier to dance about music and write about architecture. The elements of tangibility and objectivity come into play here. One can state objective facts about music but it's hard to convey what music is or sounds like, and its value will always be heavily subjective. Furthermore, often the more you say about music, the further you get from its essence. It's almost like observer bias, you can't help but bring personal tastes and experience into it, yet at the same time it's difficult to articulate the qualities in music that make it "good" or "bad."

I'm sympathetic to both positions, that it's not worth trying to articulate the indefinable, and that a talented and sensitive writer should take on the challenge of doing so.

My favorite writing about music:

"Oh, it was gorgeousness and gorgeosity made flesh. The trombones crunched redgold under my bed, and behind my gulliver the trumpets three-wise silverflamed, and there by the door the timps rolling through my guts and out again crunched like candy thunder. Oh, it was wonder of wonders. And then, a bird of like rarest spun heavenmetal, or like silvery wine flowing in a spaceship, gravity all nonsense now, came the violin solo above all the other strings, and those strings were like a cage of silk round my bed. Then flute and oboe bored, like worms of like platinum, into the thick thick toffee gold and silver. I was in such bliss, my brothers."
A Clockwork Orange, Anthony Burgess

[Surfer]

its not Monk, steve, I've always heard it was Costello.

[Chris D]

That quote is a lot older than Elvis Costello's time on the scene.

[Vince Kargatis]

The point of that page, though, is that its higher age stems purely from hearsay. I doubt many believe that it isn't older, just that its origins are hopelessly clouded.

[lazarus]

I have always thought the quote is from Zappa.

[clarke68]

I first heard it from Laurie Anderson, although I don't recall her making any claims to it's origin.

FWIW, not everyone thinks dancing about architecture is all that bad an idea:

Originally Posted by Carol Brown, choreographer

Dance and architecture have much in common. Both are concerned with practices of space. For a dancer, the act of choreography as a writing of place occurs through the unfolding of spatial dimensions through gesture and embodied body movement. For the architect, space is the medium through which form emerges and habitation is constructed. For both, the first experienced space is the space of the body.

[Jon Abbey]

Originally Posted by lazarus

I have always thought the quote is from Zappa.

that's what I thought.

[Nim Chimpsky]

The Zappa connection might have come about from other remarks he made about writing about music:

"Rock journalism is people who can't write interviewing people who can't talk for people who can't read."

Frank Zappa, quoted in Linda Botts, "Loose Talk" (1980)

[groover]

Originally Posted by Nim Chimpsky

"Rock journalism is people who can't write interviewing people who can't talk for people who can't read."

Frank Zappa, quoted in Linda Botts, "Loose Talk" (1980)

A bit hyperbolic, but largely accurate.

[Nim Chimpsky]

Originally Posted by groover

A bit hyperbolic, but largely accurate.

And lo, did groover begin to grasp the concept of humourous quotation.

[groover]

No one cuts me much slack here, so I'm just doin' unto others as they've done unto me, Nim. I try to make a positive comment about your post and you still have to insult me. I realize you can't help being an asshole, it's your basic personality.

[Bill Barton]

The original source has been debated for so long now it probably isn't even possible to figure it out. Laurie Anderson by way of Steve Martin seems to be the most likely but it certainly sounds like something Zappa could have said or should have said.

[bigtiny]

I'm betting it was Zappa. Of all the people cited, the quote seems to me to be closest to his sensibilities.

I can't buy it from Monk....I mean this is the guy who said "I'm famous? Ain't that a bitch!"

A great quote to be sure, but a decidedly different 'voice' than the quote being discussed...

bigtiny