Wynton Marsalis' "The Swing Seat"

[Frank Leo]

I've never been a fan of Wynton Marsalis' music, nor his retro-jazz activism, but since I began listening to his weekend show "The Swing Seat" on XM radio, I've a new appreciation for the man as an educator. This is an excellent program, especially the segment where he has another musician or band play, then asks them about their approach to the music. He asks excellent questions, and has the ability to elicit telling, cogent explanations. He still gets on my nerves (there's a certain smugness to his tone that just seems a permanently ingrained aspect of his personality), and I'll probably never be a big fan of his music, but I learn a lot by listening to this show.

This week I only caught the tail end of his appreciation of Don Cherry and Don Ellis; I wish I'd heard the whole thing. The man obviously isn't as close-minded as I once thought.

[Paul B]

You'll find most around here agree with your take of WM, with one notable exception—and you'll know who that is if he chimes in. I'd certainly rather hear Marsalis talk than play—though as you say his pedantry can be annoying despite his knowledge and love of the music. But if I get a chance, I'll check out the show you mention.

[bigtiny]

I'm not a big Marsalis fan (though he's an amazing trumpet player), but I've always been impressed with his abilities as a presenter or educator. One of the best things I've EVER seen was a thing he did on PBS years ago -- it was an educational thing for kids where he had a bunch of kids, the BSO with Seiji Ozawa and a big band (could have been the Lincoln Center band).

He explained the fundamentals of music to the kids with real time examples, and talked about swing and other stylistic attributes.

It was very impressive. Reminded me of the old Bernstein Young People's Concerts....

bigtiny

[shrugs]

Originally Posted by Frank Leo

This week I only caught the tail end of his appreciation of Don Cherry.

kinda like being for the war at the beginning and now against it.

clueless sob acts like he owns the word gumbo but can't come second line down here to save his ass.....

[Frank Leo]

Originally Posted by shrugs

kinda like being for the war at the beginning and now against it.

Better late than never. Thank goodness most people are born with a built-in capacity for growth.

[Rob Damen]

Actually ... Wynton's been an advocate of Don Cherry for years.

From 2000 ...

http://www.trumpetguild.org/2000conf...urday/s8pm.htm

Overall, Marsalis' appreciation for Cherry actually goes back to about the beginning of his career.

Cheers,

Notable exception ... among a few other notable exceptions here, I might add.

[Frank Leo]

Actually, I've followed Wynton's career pretty closely, and I cannot recall him dismissing any specific free jazz cats. He has always been pretty general in the direction of his criticism, I think. That's not to cut him any slack, because he's said some pretty outrageous things over the past 25-plus years, but by being so general, he's left himself a lot of wiggle room.

[Rob Damen]

I wouldn't consider his courting of Cherry to be wiggle room, however. And clearly a lot of people out there don't think what Marsalis has said is outrageous. After all, Marsalis was hardly the first to say such things.

Cheers,

Rob

[clinthopson]

Wm's XM show would be a helluva lot better if he'd not shuck and jive so much and play longer cuts of the musicians he features.

I do like the live segments.

[Frank Leo]

Originally Posted by clinthopson

Wm's XM show would be a helluva lot better if he'd not shuck and jive so much and play longer cuts of the musicians he features.

I do like the live segments.

I'd have to agree with you on that. Too much talking over the music for my taste, definitely. The live segments are where it's at.

[Rob Damen]

I always prefer playing to talking no matter the host, but "shuck" and "jive" is a bit much as a description for what I've heard of the show.

Cheers,

Rob

[kenny weir]

Originally Posted by shrugs

clueless sob acts like he owns the word gumbo but can't come second line down here to save his ass.....

That's pretty funny!

On another board, a Wyntonite was talking up WM's double CD of pseudo church music in terms of it having lots of genuwhine New Orleans blowing and so on.

When I opined that he just dones't seem to have much of a feel for his hometown grooves at all, the WMite asked: "Come on Kenny - do you really think you know more about blues and southern culture and New Orleans than Wynton?"

Well actually, in more ways than one - yes.

[Rob Damen]

Originally Posted by kenny weir

That's pretty funny!

On another board, a Wyntonite was talking up WM's double CD of pseudo church music in terms of it having lots of genuwhine New Orleans blowing and so on.

When I opined that he just dones't seem to have much of a feel for his hometown grooves at all, the WMite asked: "Come on Kenny - do you really think you know more about blues and southern culture and New Orleans than Wynton?"

Well actually, in more ways than one - yes.

I think Shrugs was talking about traveling to New Orleans, which Wynton has done many times over the years. Hmmm, Congo Square was premiered there, but eh, let's skip over the facts.

And you're right, your last two paragraphs here are funny ... unintentionally, I suspect.

How's your XM radio show on NO jazz going by the way?

Cheers,

Rob

[kenny weir]

Originally Posted by Rob Damen

I think Shrugs was talking about traveling to New Orleans, which Wynton has done many times over the years

Travelling to New Orleans? Hell, I though he was born and bred there.

Hmmm, Congo Square was premiered there, but eh, let's skip over the facts.

Well, like a lot of other performers, WM has name-dropped New Orleans all over the place. So what? Doesn't mean he's doing so to any intelligent effect.

In any case, based on the uptight way he tries to incorpoarate his, um, heritage into his music AND his verbal pronouncements, it seems that when it comes to NO and it culture and music, he knows sod all.

How's your XM radio show on NO jazz going by the way?

What's XM radio? I've had a radio show for more than 20 years here in Melbourne and have travelled to New Orleans many times since the mid '80s, staying for long perdiods.

When it comes to New Orleans, I'm not silly enough to consider myself any kind of expert; but I do consider myself well enough up on it all to find WM's New Orleans schtick a kind of ersatz Crescent City.

As I know you are a champion of WM's dreadful Morton album, I feel sorry for you - in that you are being conned.

But no sweat - I know you like it that way.

[Rob Damen]

Originally Posted by kenny weir

Travelling to New Orleans? Hell, I though he was born and bred there.

And now he lives in New York. (cymbal crash!)

No, sir, the statement, as I read it, indicated that he really doesn't go there at all, but I've demonstrated that's clearly not true as "Congo Square" was premiered there.

Well, like a lot of other performers, WM has name-dropped New Orleans all over the place. So what? Doesn't mean he's doing so to any intelligent effect. ... In any case, based on the uptight way he tries to incorpoarate his, um, heritage into his music AND his verbal pronouncements, it seems that when it comes to NO and it culture and music, he knows sod all.

It's a little hard to accuse him of name-dropping as many of his roots are there. I'd expect him to mentioned it, in fact. Who doesn't mention where they're from in conversation? This is a real reach.

As for his intellectual impact, it's clear he's gotten lots of musicians from New Orleans to follow his example and many play in his bands, so clearly, your "point" doesn't make a lot of sense.

What's XM radio? I've had a radio show for more than 20 years here in Melbourne and have travelled to New Orleans many times since the mid '80s, staying for long perdiods. ... When it comes to New Orleans, I'm not silly enough to consider myself any kind of expert; but I do consider myself well enough up on it all to find WM's New Orleans schtick a kind of ersatz Crescent City.

Well, then, if he's so off about NO music, then, by all means, break it down for us.

Because ...

As I know you are a champion of WM's dreadful Morton album, I feel sorry for you - in that you are being conned. ... But no sweat - I know you like it that way.

Not only have I been conned, but so has the Penguin Guide, allmusic.com, the Rough Guide and allaboutjazz.com, all of whom give it no less than four out of five stars or stellar notes in their reviews. Clearly, I'm not alone in my thinking it was a damn good disc.

Cheers,

Rob

[Frank Leo]

Wynton moved to NYC when he was what--18? He's lived away from NO a lot longer than he lived there.

Wynton is a romantic. He idealizes every aspect of jazz history, including--and especially--its New Orleans roots. Marsalis is to jazz what Shelby Foote is to the Civil War (and Buck O'Neill was to Negro League baseball...hmmm, don't those three gentlemen have something in common?). I don't find that sort of myth-based approach very appealing, but some people do. Different strokes, I guess.

[kenny weir]

Originally Posted by Frank Leo

I don't find that sort of myth-based approach very appealing, but some people do. Different strokes, I guess.

I'm with you. New Orleans is like the Old West - for many, the romance IS the real deal. And that kind of mythicking has its own power and substance.

[Paul B]

Kenny and Frank—it's pointless to argue with the flak. WM is all he knows, really (he's certainly never talked much about anyone else on this forum, or demonstrated any real knowledge of the music) and he'll never admit that his idol is anything but perfect and above criticism. Be thankful you both have a much broader perspective, and leave him in his tiny corner.

[shrugs]

You'd think he would want to be some part, even if small, of the brass band tradition that the late, great Danny Barker helped to revitalize. After all, another trumpet in a second line parade is always welcome.

His brother, Branford is helping out with the Musicians Village that Habitat for Humanity is building.

Not sure what role, if any, Wynton has played in the rebirth of his native city.

I moved back here in October of '03 and keep up with the music scene even though I rarely get the chance to attend everything.

Haven't heard of Wynton coming here that often.

[Rob Damen]

Originally Posted by Frank Leo

Wynton moved to NYC when he was what--18? He's lived away from NO a lot longer than he lived there.

Wynton is a romantic. He idealizes every aspect of jazz history, including--and especially--its New Orleans roots. Marsalis is to jazz what Shelby Foote is to the Civil War (and Buck O'Neill was to Negro League baseball...hmmm, don't those three gentlemen have something in common?). I don't find that sort of myth-based approach very appealing, but some people do. Different strokes, I guess.

Originally Posted by kenny weir

I'm with you. New Orleans is like the Old West - for many, the romance IS the real deal. And that kind of mythicking has its own power and substance.

I don't know if 18 years is the exact number. Nonetheless, that's a long time, and they are his formative years, both as a person and as a musician. Plenty of NO musicians have left the city and spent more of their years away from the city. There's nothing really extraordinary about this. Again, this seems pretty thin unless you can provide something more concrete. Taking your point a step further, since most of us haven't lived the majority of our lives in NO, then, via your logic, we are all disqualified from discussing the city and its music beyond broad romantic stripes. Wynton clearly can and has publicly described NO music in technical terms for years, so I don't think this makes a lot of sense to say he merely romanticizies things.

Originally Posted by shrugs

You'd think he would want to be some part, even if small, of the brass band tradition that the late, great Danny Barker helped to revitalize. After all, another trumpet in a second line parade is always welcome. His brother, Branford is helping out with the Musicians Village that Habitat for Humanity is building. Not sure what role, if any, Wynton has played in the rebirth of his native city. I moved back here in October of '03 and keep up with the music scene even though I rarely get the chance to attend everything. Haven't heard of Wynton coming here that often.

Wow!

Ah, ahem, you do know that Marsalis studied under Barker in those formative years, don't you? And Marsalis returned the favor years later as he's featured on "Majesty of the Blues" ... and I believe they've played in other shows over the years.

In addition to being one of the most vocal spokesman on Hurricane Katrina, he also held a concert entitled "Higher Ground Hurricane Relief Benefit Concert and Auction." It was on PBS and the concert is on CD, all to help those hurt in the tragedy.

Cheers,

Rob

[Frank Leo]

"Again, this seems pretty thin unless you can provide something more concrete."

Mr. Damen, with all due respect, I'm beginning to think that Danny Barker could catch and film Wynton in the act of scrawling "New Orleans Sucks" and "Guy Lombardo Rules" on the sidewalk in front of Preservation Hall, post it on YouTube with a signed affidavit from Marsalis swearing that said graffiti reflects his true feelings, and you'd still explain it away.

WM is a pretty good trumpet player and educator and a tireless promoter of jazz. He's also a flesh and blood human being, or so I assume...I haven't anything "more concrete" that would prove that assertion.

[shrugs]

Originally Posted by Rob Damen

I don't know if 18 years is the exact number. Nonetheless, that's a long time, and they are his formative years, both as a person and as a musician. Plenty of NO musicians have left the city and spent more of their years away from the city. There's nothing really extraordinary about this. Again, this seems pretty thin unless you can provide something more concrete. Taking your point a step further, since most of us haven't lived the majority of our lives in NO, then, via your logic, we are all disqualified from discussing the city and its music beyond broad romantic stripes. Wynton clearly can and has publicly described NO music in technical terms for years, so I don't think this makes a lot of sense to say he merely romanticizies things.



Wow!

Ah, ahem, you do know that Marsalis studied under Barker in those formative years, don't you? And Marsalis returned the favor years later as he's featured on "Majesty of the Blues" ... and I believe they've played in other shows over the years.

In addition to being one of the most vocal spokesman on Hurricane Katrina, he also held a concert entitled "Higher Ground Hurricane Relief Benefit Concert and Auction." It was on PBS and the concert is on CD, all to help those hurt in the tragedy.

Cheers,

Rob

Vocal spokesperson? My ass.....
And if he is a Barker student, why doesn't he frequent second lines?
I'm not sure that benefit really helped anyone. There are still lot's of people hurting...
Brad Pitt's project probably has done more and he isn't even a native.

[clinthopson]

BTW, XM has a very good Saturday morning show with Ben Sidran. He interviews musicians in some depth. Today he had a very good interview with Sonny Rollins.

I think it may have been recorded earlier, but that was the first time I've heard it. Sonny's comments about his solo MOMA appearance in the 80's made me want to run out and get the disc of the concert, if it's still available.

[Chris D]

Originally Posted by clinthopson

BTW, XM has a very good Saturday morning show with Ben Sidran. He interviews musicians in some depth. Today he had a very good interview with Sonny Rollins.

I think it may have been recorded earlier, but that was the first time I've heard it. Sonny's comments about his solo MOMA appearance in the 80's made me want to run out and get the disc of the concert, if it's still available.

Pretty sure those are the shows Ben did back in the late '80s, early '90s.

That was a great program.

[bernard lyons]

Originally Posted by clinthopson

I think it may have been recorded earlier, but that was the first time I've heard it. Sonny's comments about his solo MOMA appearance in the 80's made me want to run out and get the disc of the concert, if it's still available.

Its available on CD - Sculpture Garden, Museum Of Modern Art
New York City, July 19, 1985 (Milestone)

I picked up a used Japanese import copy for $3.99(!!) in a Baltimore CD store last month

[Rob Damen]

Originally Posted by Frank Leo

"Again, this seems pretty thin unless you can provide something more concrete."

Mr. Damen, with all due respect, I'm beginning to think that Danny Barker could catch and film Wynton in the act of scrawling "New Orleans Sucks" and "Guy Lombardo Rules" on the sidewalk in front of Preservation Hall, post it on YouTube with a signed affidavit from Marsalis swearing that said graffiti reflects his true feelings, and you'd still explain it away.

WM is a pretty good trumpet player and educator and a tireless promoter of jazz. He's also a flesh and blood human being, or so I assume...I haven't anything "more concrete" that would prove that assertion.

We'll skip the silliness of your Baker thing here and just move downward.

When I mean provide something more concrete, I'm talking about what was done earlier when I posted an article that clearly demonstrated that a notion you clearly agreed to (that Wynton had come late to recognizing Don Cherry) was clearly false, given that the report demonstrates he's played his music in public going back close to 10 years ago. There's examples of Wynton and the orchestra playing Ornette's quartet music when it featured Cherry on YouTube, too. And if you look, I'm certain there are much earlier references.

Somewhere along the line, you formed a conclusion that he's romaniticizing NO history. Based on what? And to what degree is this so different from anyone else, if at all? Asking such a question is reasonable.

Originally Posted by shrugs

Vocal spokesperson? My ass.....
And if he is a Barker student, why doesn't he frequent second lines?
I'm not sure that benefit really helped anyone. There are still lot's of people hurting... Brad Pitt's project probably has done more and he isn't even a native.

Another wow!

There's plenty of articles on the internet at your disposal, not to mention at YouTube and other video sites of Marsalis speaking openly and loudly about it. "Congo Square" is dedicated to it, I believe. And the opening statements of the piece rip FEMA and the government directly, something not to be found in most, if not all, other jazz pieces. In fact, for a time, you couldn't get away from him on the Katrina issue.

It seems like you expected Marsalis' benefit to save NO ("I'm not sure that benefit really helped anyone. there are still lot's of people hurting") Near as I can tell, the benefit was a success and did help out, unless you have information to the contrary. Near as I can tell, no one from NO has ripped Marsalis for what he's done regarding Katrina. If anything, he's been praised quite a bit.

And I doubt you have any real ability to measure the effectiveness of Pitt's campaign against Marsalis' or to any other celebrity. Again, you need something a little more to make this have any real impact. Right now, you're just making a lot of claims.

As for second lining, you might want to check "Live at the House of Tribes" ... where you'll find, yup, "Second Line"! He's ended a lot of his shows with traditional NO dances and second lines, too. Check the X-Mas special, too. Or, even, yup, "Congo Square"!

Cheers,

Rob

[Frank Leo]

Mr. Damen, believe it or not, your arguments are not nearly so persuasive as you seem to think. Indeed, they have the extreme opposite effect that you desire. You're not doing WM any favors, not that he needs your help. He does quite nicely for himself.

You seem to be your own biggest fan.

[Enforcer]

I check the program out fairly often and I think it's excellent.

[Rob Damen]

Originally Posted by Frank Leo

Mr. Damen, believe it or not, your arguments are not nearly so persuasive as you seem to think. Indeed, they have the extreme opposite effect that you desire. You're not doing WM any favors, not that he needs your help. He does quite nicely for himself.

You seem to be your own biggest fan.

You've confirmed for me that my arguments are quite persuasive as your non-response/response clearly indicates, otherwise, you'd set about debunking them with something other than denials and claims. No offense, but I suspect you can't come up with the goods.

Cheers,

Rob

[Rob Damen]

Originally Posted by Enforcer

I check the program out fairly often and I think it's excellent.

Shame on you!



Cheers,

Rob