Herbie Hancock on his belief in Buddhism

[Bluebrew]

am not much for organized religion but we all have our own spiritualism. I thought this was kind of interesting.

That was totally new to me. Because, to me, the idea of religion was always that you had to believe in it for it to work. But then I thought, Wait a minute. Gravity works whether you believe in it or not. And then, Should religion be weaker than natural science? And he said, "This religion is really based on cause and effect and actual proof." So I said, "Well, I have nothing to lose. Sure, I’ll check it out."


more here. It's kind of interesting from a musical point of view.
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/225/story_22533_1.html

[Bill Barton]

That's a very interesting article. Thanks for posting the link. One thing that I find a little curious about it, though, is the fact that it seems to imply that Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism is synonymous with Buddhism. Most branches of Buddhism are committed to meditation rather than chanting. Nichiren Shoshu plus other sects of Nichiren, particularly Soka Gakkai International (SGI), are actually somewhat controversial.

[hornplayer]

I know quite a number of Jazz musicians, including some on Jazz Corner, who are Buddhists. I mean SGI Buddhists. why is it "controversial?" -- any more than all religion seems to be controversial....

imho, it's whatever works for you.

[Al in NYC]

Soka Gakkai is controversial for a number of reasons, among them being its deep involvement in Japanese politics through the ruling coalition member Komeito party, the cult of personality of its former head, Daisaku Ikeda, and his elevation by followers to near Buddha-like stature, their consequent expulsion from the mainstream Nichiren Buddhist organization, its very un-Buddhist-like concentration on prostelytizing, as Bill indicated its deviations from more conventional Buddhist practices, and its Scientology-like emphasis on following and obeying mentors, tithing large amounts of money to the organization, and its hostility towards outsiders and criticism of the organization.

[Bluebrew]

Originally Posted by Al in NYC

Soka Gakkai is controversial for a number of reasons, among them being its deep involvement in Japanese politics through the ruling coalition member Komeito party, the cult of personality of its former head, Daisaku Ikeda, and his elevation by followers to near Buddha-like stature, their consequent expulsion from the mainstream Nichiren Buddhist organization, its very un-Buddhist-like concentration on prostelytizing, as Bill indicated its deviations from more conventional Buddhist practices, and its Scientology-like emphasis on following and obeying mentors, tithing large amounts of money to the organization, and its hostility towards outsiders and criticism of the organization.

You have hit a lot of true points here. My wife is a member of the Soka Gakkai but not by conversion but by birth. She is Japanese and belongs to a long line of Nichiren adherents. Many many Japanese took to this branch of Nichiren during the war because Nichiren became the state religion of General Tojo and the military clique. Soka Gakkai was against the war and it's leader Mr Toda , I think was sent to prison my wifes family did not want to give up the tenets of Nichiren but they were against the war so the joined Soka Gakkai and my father-in-law spent three years in jail.

Before the war Japanese Buddhists had a history of interfering with politics but this was prohibited by the new constitution. Only Nichiren had a lay organization that could skirt this regulation and they did with a fever. The other sects are looking for ways to do this but so far they have been blocked. My father-in-law went back to the Nich¡hiren temple when Soka Gakkai got mixed up in politics. My mother-in-law did not.

Yet she was a remarkable woman. She adopted me legally so that in Japan my daughters can use the family name. That's a pretty big deal. Yet this woman knew that I was a Catholic (however nominal) and never attempted to convert me.

When we went to Europe was when we saw how this was being turned into a cult. But most members I met in Spain and France were under that thin veneer of Buddhism still acting in every way like traditional Catholic. Most but not all. Some were like Hancock in their practice. Later when I brought the family to the states all the Gakkai members we met who were not Japanese or Taiwanese acted like fundamentalist Christians. In other words they simply became another sect of their Christian past. The most surprising thing was that these people were out in the streets like seventh day Adventists looking for converts. Yes in Japan some try to convert you and that is the anti-thesis of Buddhism. You're supposed to seek it out. In that sense Buddhism is like the Jewish faith in that they do not actively seek convert That missionary behavior repels many Japanese. Yet th truth is it works for many people. Those I suppose who have sought out the inner core. Tina Turner claims it turned her life around and saved her from a bad life. Different strokes I guess. I've never been interested and I've been together with my wife for 41 years with no problems. The kids, however, like to tease mom (they all having been born in Spain are Catholic) about the "my God is better than your God." then do something totally ridiculous like stand on their heads and say "Can your God do this?" Then try to make mom stand on her head. Luckily mom has a great sense of humor she also like Art Pepper even though he wasn't a Buddhist. Well maybe he was in another life and probably Japanese to boot. That's what Buddhists would say anyway.

[Bill Barton]

That's a very succinct overview from Al in NYC. I probably should have detailed why I feel that there is an element of controversy involved in my original post. It definitely sparked discussion, however, and the preceding two posts may shed some light on the subject for hornplayer. The prostelytizing is the major reason I find SGI somewhat disturbing. As you said, Bluebrew, "different strokes." I have no problem with the use of chanting as opposed to meditation, although there are some in the Buddhist community who see this as a shortcut. To me, it's a prime example of the depth of Gautama Buddha's original teachings, with particular approaches "tailored" to different people. Pure Land Buddhism with its emphasis on the chanting of Amitābha Buddha's name as a primary element of practice is another example of this approach.

[hornplayer]

Originally Posted by Bill Barton

That's a very succinct overview from Al in NYC. I probably should have detailed why I feel that there is an element of controversy involved in my original post. It definitely sparked discussion, however, and the preceding two posts may shed some light on the subject for hornplayer. The prostelytizing is the major reason I find SGI somewhat disturbing. As you said, Bluebrew, "different strokes." I have no problem with the use of chanting as opposed to meditation, although there are some in the Buddhist community who see this as a shortcut. To me, it's a prime example of the depth of Gautama Buddha's original teachings, with particular approaches "tailored" to different people. Pure Land Buddhism with its emphasis on the chanting of Amitābha Buddha's name as a primary element of practice is another example of this approach.

the folks I know don't proselytize. never thought of it that way.

[Chaz Longue]

I always thought the phrase "organized religion" was redundant.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by Chaz Longue

I always thought the phrase "organized religion" was redundant.

What I hate is the use of the word "faith" as a euphemism for religion.

[Bill Barton]

Originally Posted by Chaz Longue

I always thought the phrase "organized religion" was redundant.

Personally I prefer disorganized religion

Originally Posted by Pete C

What I hate is the use of the word "faith" as a euphemism for religion.

Agreed! Faith in what?

[Ron Thorne]

Originally Posted by Bill Barton

Faith in what?

Ummmm ... the faith to go forward with a belief system, and that you're not being lied to by the folks to whom you give your tithes?

[Bluebrew]

Originally Posted by Chaz Longue

I always thought the phrase "organized religion" was redundant.

I think that religion can be organized. Being brought up Catholic (and there are many thing I do like about the Catholic religion) I belong to an incredibly organized religion...just look at the Vatican. It is better organized in many ways that most governments. One thing is certainly interesting and that is that lay organization are often far more organized than any other part of the religion. Just look at the Opus Dei or Soka Gakkai. These are highly organized elements of their respective religions. What cannot be organized is to me, what the greatest asset to religious thought is and that is the spiritualism that is connected to any given religion.

[Gentle Giant]

Originally Posted by Pete C

What I hate is the use of the word "faith" as a euphemism for religion.

Interestingly, the word faith in a religious context has two similar though critically distinct meanings. It has indeed become a synonym (let's be fair, that's the correct term) for religion, yet it's also an important emotional condition that makes religion possible. Faith is what happens when you are willing to believe without requiring proof, when what you feel is more important to you than what you can see or explain, when logic has reached its limit...but you haven't.

[Valerie]

Originally Posted by Al in NYC

Soka Gakkai is controversial for a number of reasons, among them being its deep involvement in Japanese politics through the ruling coalition member Komeito party, the cult of personality of its former head, Daisaku Ikeda, and his elevation by followers to near Buddha-like stature, their consequent expulsion from the mainstream Nichiren Buddhist organization, its very un-Buddhist-like concentration on prostelytizing, as Bill indicated its deviations from more conventional Buddhist practices, and its Scientology-like emphasis on following and obeying mentors, tithing large amounts of money to the organization, and its hostility towards outsiders and criticism of the organization.

right you are, Al!

[Valerie]

Originally Posted by Bluebrew

You have hit a lot of true points here. My wife is a member of the Soka Gakkai but not by conversion but by birth. She is Japanese and belongs to a long line of Nichiren adherents. Many many Japanese took to this branch of Nichiren during the war because Nichiren became the state religion of General Tojo and the military clique. Soka Gakkai was against the war and it's leader Mr Toda , I think was sent to prison my wifes family did not want to give up the tenets of Nichiren but they were against the war so the joined Soka Gakkai and my father-in-law spent three years in jail.

Before the war Japanese Buddhists had a history of interfering with politics but this was prohibited by the new constitution. Only Nichiren had a lay organization that could skirt this regulation and they did with a fever. The other sects are looking for ways to do this but so far they have been blocked. My father-in-law went back to the Nich¡hiren temple when Soka Gakkai got mixed up in politics. My mother-in-law did not.

Yet she was a remarkable woman. She adopted me legally so that in Japan my daughters can use the family name. That's a pretty big deal. Yet this woman knew that I was a Catholic (however nominal) and never attempted to convert me.

When we went to Europe was when we saw how this was being turned into a cult. But most members I met in Spain and France were under that thin veneer of Buddhism still acting in every way like traditional Catholic. Most but not all. Some were like Hancock in their practice. Later when I brought the family to the states all the Gakkai members we met who were not Japanese or Taiwanese acted like fundamentalist Christians. In other words they simply became another sect of their Christian past. The most surprising thing was that these people were out in the streets like seventh day Adventists looking for converts. Yes in Japan some try to convert you and that is the anti-thesis of Buddhism. You're supposed to seek it out. In that sense Buddhism is like the Jewish faith in that they do not actively seek convert That missionary behavior repels many Japanese. Yet th truth is it works for many people. Those I suppose who have sought out the inner core. Tina Turner claims it turned her life around and saved her from a bad life. Different strokes I guess. I've never been interested and I've been together with my wife for 41 years with no problems. The kids, however, like to tease mom (they all having been born in Spain are Catholic) about the "my God is better than your God." then do something totally ridiculous like stand on their heads and say "Can your God do this?" Then try to make mom stand on her head. Luckily mom has a great sense of humor she also like Art Pepper even though he wasn't a Buddhist. Well maybe he was in another life and probably Japanese to boot. That's what Buddhists would say anyway.

must say that i had a little something to do with that! she even credits me for it in her autobiography.

[Bluebrew]

Valerie has also posted on this subject on another site as have i. From the musical aspect weather you are a Buddhist or not the sounds of the chants are powerful and can convey wonderful feelings the way all chants do. Here are the examples I posted on the other site. You can try to loop them and let them play as a form of meditation.

http://www.buddhanet.net/filelib/mp3/nam_myoho.mp3

http://www.buddhanet.net/filelib/mp3/nichiren_gong.mp3

Here is another Chant that is totally unrelated and comes from half way around the world from Buddhism but it is also emensialy powerful. This is the Saeta an Easter Week Chant from Spain. Much different from the Seatas of Miles Davis and Gil Evans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaRTfn1wJws