Gotta love Bill!

[Scott Dolan]

http://www.apple.com/trailers/lions_...ler_large.html

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

Blessed is the one who grabs your little children and smashes them against a rock.

Psalm 137:9

[Gentle Giant]

It looks very entertaining, but I fear that rather than trying to get at some sense of meaning or resolution, he's just out to get the audience laughing at people of faith, which essentially is treating them like sideshow freaks. He may surprise me and decide to be smart instead of just smarmy, but I sense he's going to come across as smarter than thou.


Steve, you quote my favorite Psalm, an astonishingly beautiful piece of poetry with an astonishingly horrific last line. It was the setting to "On The Willows" from Godspell, and was written after the destruction of the Temple and the Hebrews' exile to Babylon, a very black time in Jewish history.

Psalm 137
By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.

We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof.

For there they that carried us away captive required of us a song; and they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us one of the songs of Zion.

How shall we sing the LORD's song in a strange land?

If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning.

If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy.

Remember, O LORD, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem; who said, Rase it, rase it, even to the foundation thereof.

O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.

Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

[rollhead]

[Scott Dolan]

Originally Posted by GG

It looks very entertaining, but I fear that rather than trying to get at some sense of meaning or resolution, he's just out to get the audience laughing at people of faith, which essentially is treating them like sideshow freaks.

You say this as though it's a bad thing.

[Gary Sisco]

Oh, hell, if we took the slaughter, animal blood, genocide, and sex licit or illicit out the Book, it'd be about 30 pages long. Much of it is violence on a Cormac McCarthy-plus scale. Mayhem and rapine.

There's plenty to mock in there. I read at least a chapter a day. You look at something like, say, Judges, there's very nearly a wholesale slaughter per verse.

Or maybe perverse.

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

Ah, but Ecclesiastes is divine!

[Scott Dolan]

Ah, but that's Old Testament, Mr. Sisco.

Remember, Jesus was sent to be the savior of mankind. And those were all the dastardly deeds he was saving us from.

[Gary Sisco]

Originally Posted by Squaredancecalling Steve

Ah, but Ecclesiastes is divine!

I thought the whole damn thing was divine?

[Gary Sisco]

Scott -- Yeah, yeah. Nice peaceful loving types like, oh, Paul, for instance. If anyone actually followed the guy's pronouncements, women would be chattel and every man in the world, blind. He doesn't even approve of sex for the married. He admits that perhaps married couples might not burn in hell for eternity if they fuck once in a while but it would be much, much better if they didn't, even if married.

There's plenty of violence, whores, and lowlifes in both T's. John The Revelator ain't exactly a Quaker meeting. Nuff drunkenness, too. I have to admit, I'd probably, well, not follow but follow *around* a cat who could change water into wine by the barrel and also expell demons and send them charging over cliff's in swine bodies. Now, that's a party favor. Add a little spliff of the herb what grew 'pon King Solomon's grave and some fishsticks, I'd be all set. I'd have dug watching Satan tempt Yeshua in the desert, too, if I had 40 days worth of peyote.

[Sergio Zamora]

"I like to picture Jesus as a figure skater. He wears like a white outfit, and He does interpretive ice dances of my life's journey."

- Cal Naughton Jr.

[Scott Dolan]

Originally Posted by Gary

I have to admit, I'd probably, well, not follow but follow *around* a cat who could change water into wine by the barrel and also expell demons and send them charging over cliff's in swine bodies. Now, that's a party favor.

Hahahahaha...........


Good lord!! It took me a solid minute to regain my composure after reading this gem.

Brother, may have been the funniest thing I have EVER read here. Very nicely done!

[Root Doctor]

"I always think of Jesus like a changeling, a shapeshifter... You ever seen 'Manimal?"

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

The water into wine, walking on water, and some other miracles were standard street magician tricks of the day. I've read that the early church had to decide whether Jesus did tricks to attract the man in the street to his serious teaching, or whether they were actually miracles, and they decided on the latter.

[Gary Sisco]

I wish the water into wine was a standard street magic trick today.

[jesus marion joseph]

Originally Posted by Gentle Giant

It looks very entertaining, but I fear that rather than trying to get at some sense of meaning or resolution, he's just out to get the audience laughing at people of faith, which essentially is treating them like sideshow freaks.

Not *all* people of faith (that's Hitchens' job), just the ones who are fucking whacked. They deserve to be looked upon, IMHO, as sideshow freaks.

[clinthopson]

Penn and Teller do it better.

[Brian Olewnick]

Originally Posted by Squaredancecalling Steve

The water into wine, walking on water, and some other miracles were standard street magician tricks of the day. I've read that the early church had to decide whether Jesus did tricks to attract the man in the street to his serious teaching, or whether they were actually miracles, and they decided on the latter.

There's a wonderful article by the psychologist Nicholas Humphrey wherein he goes into the psychology of Jesus, whom he thinks actually believed that he was divine. One of his points was: If, today, you were actually the Son of God and wanted to demonstrate your vast powers, you'd likely not do tricks like pulling a rabbit out of a hat or reconnecting a cut rope; you might opt for something slightly more impressive. Yet Jesus, with infinite powers at his disposal, did exactly that (as far as the written text goes, anyway), reproducing bits that are on independent, contemporaneous historical record elsewhere as common street tricks (water to wine, coin out of a fish, etc.)

I wonder if there's a cult that considers David Blaine the Second Coming?


[Here's a .pdf of the Humphrey article. It's a fine read if you have the inclination.]

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

Originally Posted by Brian Olewnick

the psychology of Jesus, whom he thinks actually believed that he was divine.

It was common among Jews of the day to believe they were in the last days. Since the messiah was to come from the House of David, every Jewish boy of that tribe was looked at as the possible Savior. Considerations of Divinity aside, Jesus believing that he was the Messiah was reasonable, given the cultural and social context.

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

And thanks for the link, I'll dive into it after the run.

[Scott Dolan]

Are you being chased?

[Brian Olewnick]

Originally Posted by Squaredancecalling Steve

It was common among Jews of the day to believe they were in the last days. Since the messiah was to come from the House of David, every Jewish boy of that tribe was looked at as the possible Savior. Considerations of Divinity aside, Jesus believing that he was the Messiah was reasonable, given the cultural and social context.

Something I never quite understood--it was Joseph who was of the lineage of David (purportedly), not Mary. But Mary was *cough* impregnated by God. So Jesus wasn't of the line of David--except in broad enough terms that everyone was--, hence didn't fulfill the prophecy. Am I missing something?

[Brian Olewnick]

Originally Posted by Squaredancecalling Steve

It was common among Jews of the day to believe they were in the last days. Since the messiah was to come from the House of David, every Jewish boy of that tribe was looked at as the possible Savior. Considerations of Divinity aside, Jesus believing that he was the Messiah was reasonable, given the cultural and social context.

Humphrey makes analogies to Uri Geller and other "psychics" who, he thinks with a kind of feedback-support mechanism on the part of their "followers", come to believe that they actually possess their paranormal powers.

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

Originally Posted by Brian Olewnick

Humphrey makes analogies to Uri Geller and other "psychics" who, he thinks with a kind of feedback-support mechanism on the part of their "followers", come to believe that they actually possess their paranormal powers.

Oh, yes, I've heard this fellow speak on the radio. Faith healers, charismatic preachers. Makes sense.

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

Originally Posted by Brian Olewnick

Something I never quite understood--it was Joseph who was of the lineage of David (purportedly), not Mary. But Mary was *cough* impregnated by God. So Jesus wasn't of the line of David--except in broad enough terms that everyone was--, hence didn't fulfill the prophecy. Am I missing something?

There are some things that passeth the understanding of man, Brian.

[Gary Sisco]

Originally Posted by Brian Olewnick

Something I never quite understood--it was Joseph who was of the lineage of David (purportedly), not Mary. But Mary was *cough* impregnated by God. So Jesus wasn't of the line of David--except in broad enough terms that everyone was--, hence didn't fulfill the prophecy. Am I missing something?

Brian is right. I've raised this issue in Biblical discussions for years. There is no way that Jesus can be considered of the House of David. Joseph was. Jesus was not. Mary was not. They went to Bethlehem so that Joseph could register in the census, being of the House of David. He was getting ready to put her shit in the street, actually, for getting pregnant when he hadn't "known" her yet himself, even. This is one of the hugest holes in the story. I can't believe they've managed to get away with it for a couple thousand years.

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

Are you being chased?

Yes. Terrifying chap, looks just like me.

[Gary Sisco]

I hope when we relocate south I can find a place to watch the snakehandlers.

[Gary Sisco]

Scott -- Re the OT v NT comment. Thing is, for Christians, *both* are scripture, not just the NT. So, the genocidal violence and mayhem of the OT is part of Christian scripture as much as the Sermon on the Mount. And many of them insist that the whole is to be taken literally as the word of Jah His Own Self. I don't believe anyone actually does, regardless of what they say, but that is what many profess, and it was what I was taught when my mother tried to raise a Christian and failed. There's a whole shitload of laws that come with capital punishment that the alleged fundamentalists break continuously. Shit, if you read Deuteronomy, almost every transgression of any damned thing, carries a death sentence, almost always by stoning.

Way I see it, for people who insist the whole is scripture to be taken literally: Everybody must get stoned.

There are also at least three different accounts of creation in Genesis.

You really have to wonder.

I'm a lifelong heathen and intend to die one.

[Scott Dolan]

Originally Posted by Brian Olewnick

Something I never quite understood--it was Joseph who was of the lineage of David (purportedly), not Mary. But Mary was *cough* impregnated by God. So Jesus wasn't of the line of David--except in broad enough terms that everyone was--, hence didn't fulfill the prophecy. Am I missing something?

What? Are you trying to slide your way up to the "If Adam and Eve only had two sons, then how..." question?

It's a good one, I'll grant you that.