Japanese Wedding Traditions

tippy · June-23rd-2008, 10:11 AM

Is the marriage ceremony not a big deal in Japan? Just wondering if anyone has any lowdown on what it would mean for a traditional Japanese family to have their daughter marry an Anglo as that is what is happening to my brother and his bride on Friday at an LA courthouse. The way it was expressed to me in April was that she didn't want family there. I did involve myself after some thought because I really really thought that was unfair to my mother and I expressed as much to my brother - that she is not the kind to impose herself but she might be really really sad so now the families are going to witness the marriage. I guess I am sad since I feel like I am definitely losing my brother. My mom keeps saying they do things differently in Japan and we must not understand but I really think because she is not comfortable with her family so that means we won't be in my brother's life anymore. I mean I know this is the way of the world that people pair off and form a new primary family but my brother's other girlfriends all came and stayed with us at Christmas and everything so it felt like the family was nicer and bigger and this one never wants to be around us.

tippy · June-23rd-2008, 10:21 AM

Also is there some gesture we could make for her family? There is a dinner on Thursday night. They have lived all over the world and live in Arizona for more than a decade now but don't speak any English. (This is why I figure they wouldn't want their daughter marrying an anglo even though nobody will admit this. How could you live all over the world and live so long in the States and not speak any English?) Any simple Japanese that might be appropriate to speak at the dinner? I learned how to say "I love you" in Japanese a long time ago but I am sure that's not appropriate here.

Tom Storer · June-23rd-2008, 10:35 AM

Tippy, Tippy, give her some time. Don't start lamenting that your brother is lost to you forever when his wife might just need time to get used to the whole Anglo thing. You can't see the future, after all. From the way you describe her family, it sounds like this is a big adjustment for her. My advice is to give her plenty of room to grow into this situation.

Unfortunately I don't know anything about Japanese language or culture, so I can't help you there. But I believe Al in NYC is a big Nipponophile. He should arrive in this thread before long.

Brian Olewnick · June-23rd-2008, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Storer

You can't see the future, after all.

Never underestimate the tipster.

Yeah, Al and/or Abbey may have some input.

Too bad he isn't marrying a filipina; I could fill you in plenty.

tippy · June-23rd-2008, 11:07 AM

no I was all right as rain - that's exactly what I said to my family, tom. Literally to explain to them why she wouldn't be comfortable, to give her a chance, but then last week when I found out they were having 20 to dinner when I wasn't coming to keep things as small as possible according to their wishes, I just felt started feeling really mad and bad and sad about things. So my parents are going to pay several thousand for a single dinner and I'm not going to be there and I don't know who all those other people are. anyway, so I bought a plane ticket the next day but now I don't want to go again.

tippy · June-23rd-2008, 11:11 AM

anyway, if you can help with the Japanese stuff - i guess we're supposed to drink sake but my parents don't drink according to their religion so... I know the rest is me being evil and bad which everybody here already knows I am. I have decided that I am of the age where I should start taking valium for my nervous condition.

Jon Abbey · June-23rd-2008, 11:26 AM

hey, Tippy. yeah, my wife is Japanese, lived in Tokyo her whole life until a few years ago when she came here. honestly, from a quick read here, it doesn't sound like the issue has much to do with 'Japanese-ness', but just your brother's fiancee/her family specifically. Yuko and I got married at the courthouse also, with virtually no one in attendance, but part of that was because we had very little time to do it (a three month window for a 'fiancee visa', plus we were getting kicked out of our apartment at the same time), which doesn't sound like a factor here. they have huge weddings also, just like I'm sure every culture in the world who can afford them does.

anyway, if you have specific Japanese questions, I can run them by Yuko when she's around later.

tippy · June-23rd-2008, 11:41 AM

She seems very American to me. Don't know how long she's been here - born in Puerto Rico then grew up in Indonesia until maybe 10 years - middle child. I think her parents had big ambitions for her and two sisters and are pushy. She's no slouch as an engineer now. Doesn't get along with mom or sisters so it all does make sense you know and our presence would have made say her family's absence more noticeable like I understand all of that. Something in me snapped though when I found out about the dinner last Thursday - and I just started feeling angry because my parents adore my brother - they are so proud of him, visit him 4-5 times a year in LA, followed his band around the American Southwest like groupies for the last 5 years or so, have gone to lengths over the years in supporting him in every way whether they agreed with his decisions or not and for some reason that started popping up in my head that he had to talk her into letting my parents come and the thought that they would seek family blessing while simultaneously reject their attendance on the special day. That's harsh. I do wish they would have eloped but I know too this was their way of doing things honorably. But I will say that the first time I met her I was immediately relieved and I liked her and I am happy that my brother has his companion - that is such a good thing. As the oldest you always want your younger brothers and sisters to be happy and healthy and everything - like if they are not at peace, you can never be - and now I feel I can relax that he has this but whatever happened to me last Thursday - I know it's my emotions but sheesh just kind of angry. It's embarrassing - you know you want to share your brother's announcement with your friends and the people around you but then to tell them - oh well we're not invited. You start to do a second take. You feel like an idiot but that's nothing compared to the sense of rejection. Anyway, I know that part isn't right - just saying that for whatever reason these feelings started taking over when I should be calm and happy for my brother. Very not good. I wish I wasn't going. It's so stressful to leave Simone cuz then we play russian roulette with her medicine since her sitter shoots blind.

Tom Storer · June-23rd-2008, 12:08 PM

Sounds like a tricky situation, all right. I'd be mad, too, about not being invited. Buy if you want to avoid conflicts at the wedding you can always have that grievance privately for the time being and bring it up with your brother at a later time.

A couple of details that might be telling are that her parents are pushy and ambitious for her, and that she doesn't get along with her mother and sisters. Perhaps her default setting is to keep relatives, especially female relatives, at arm's length due to whatever history she has, and she's just applying it to your brother's family now because that's how she reacts to women in the family.

Ron Thorne · June-23rd-2008, 12:36 PM

Tippy, I couldn't believe the topic of this new thread this morning. I had to read it three times before it sunk in.

I'll chime in later because we're in the midst of preparing for the marriage ceremony of our son, Justin, to his sweetheart he met while living in Kyoto . . . Rika. Her parents and grandparents flew in from Japan yesterday along with a sister who will be her maid of honor.

The similarities are remarkable, especially with Jon's circumstances.

Oh, and we're near Los Angeles.

Gotta go now!

tippy · June-23rd-2008, 12:38 PM

Tom, well this week I can see why they didn't want this moment to have tension attached to therefore reason to not have families gather. No, I think the thing that occurred to me this week that didn't before was that my brother had to talk the most important person his life into letting his family attend. And it's my fault because I thought it was wrong to deny mother attendance - I didn't say it mean, I only said to my brother that you might need to check and see how mom is really feeling about not being allowed to see her son get married and how being excluded really didn't feel good. So I guess this latest is jitters about whether she is someone who would be sensitive not just about herself but about my brother too. What I really wish is that they knew what this feels like that they might have done this better so that the family could only wish them joy - instead there is a sense of the odd surrounding it all. oh well time will tell the rest whether we see my brother again or not. You know I totally believe in the Sting song - If you love somebody set them free and I will do this for my brother because I do think, in all of the hurt feelings, that he is moving towards a better, happier life (I hope, sure hope) but you know I will be sad not to have him in my life anymore since she is obviously not going to let him visit us again.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

shit - all I wanted was a simple Japanese phrase - welcome to America - oh you live here - well, drink motherfuckas.

sorry, I am going to ask lois to delete this thread.

Rob C · June-23rd-2008, 12:40 PM

Hate to say this, but my layman's opinion based on what you've said is that this doesn't bode well for their relationship. It sounds like she's pressuring him to distance himself from your family for whatever reason (maybe because she doesn't have a good relationship with her own and she's projecting? who knows...) and that he's not willing or able to stand up to her. Just my two cents, but it reminds me a little of my own (non-Japanese) ex-wife!

tippy · June-23rd-2008, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Thorne

Tippy, I couldn't believe the topic of this new thread this morning. I had to read it three times before it sunk in.

I'll chime in later because we're in the midst of preparing for the marriage ceremony of our son, Justin, to his sweetheart he met while living in Kyoto . . . Rika. Her parents and grandparents flew in from Japan yesterday along with a sister who will be her maid of honor.

The similarities are remarkable, especially with Jon's circumstances.

Oh, and we're near Los Angeles.

Gotta go now!

Ron, for real, real? Do chime in. And congratulations!!! I'm sure it will be fine it's just the lack of felicity when you want to be happy for someone is kind of a bummer.

tippy · June-23rd-2008, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob C

Hate to say this, but my layman's opinion based on what you've said is that this doesn't bode well for their relationship. It sounds like she's pressuring him to distance himself from your family for whatever reason (maybe because she doesn't have a good relationship with her own and she's projecting? who knows...) and that he's not willing or able to stand up to her. Just my two cents, but it reminds me a little of my own (non-Japanese) ex-wife!

which is totally not like my brother - that is my feeling that he has been not been himself since with her - BUT then you know he is not someone who would make a commitment if he didn't want to or if he didn't feel sure. So it must be he likes the new person he is with her. Again, she is born here even if she lived all over so she is a citizen. But I did start to wonder whether she is using him to separate from the pressures of her family a la rebellion. I do wish they might have waited one more year - they are getting married on the second anniversary of their meeting. Anyway, I know I have to be cool to my brother because the last thing I would want to do is alienate him because I can't deal with something you know? And knowing how easy it would be for that to happen - you know to a split in the family which I never thought our family could possibly fall prey - knowing that it could weigh on something as simple and easy as someone freaking out inappropriately during a time of stress is I think what makes me sad.

About that valium...

Al in NYC · June-23rd-2008, 01:14 PM

Sorry I couldn't get to this sooner. My situation was similar to Jon's. We had to get married relatively quickly in order to deal with some impending visa issues. We got married here in NYC in a very small courtroom ceremony, and then had a smallish reception dinner that sounds a lot like your brother's deal. We had 26 people there - we had originally planned it with no family involved, and for probably much the same reasons as your brother (one was the fact that we had basically NO money at the time), but we eventually invited my parents and sister and the few members of my wife's family here in the U.S (her brother from Westchester and an uncle and aunt from upstate NY).

When we had finally straightened out the visa situation (it took 4 months, and would probably take longer now) we went to Japan where we had 3 different reception/parties of varying levels of formality in different parts of Japan with different members of her family. Her parents spoke English quite well - they'd lived in the NYC area for over a decade - and were not particularly surprised that she had married a non-Japanese since she hadn't lived there since she was 16 and had made it known that she didn't want to go back to Japan. Despite the rather odd start, I was on quite good terms with my in-laws for the 16 years of our marriage and still have very warm feelings for them and hear from them from time to time.

Despite your wish to delete this thread, please PM me if you have any further questions that I may be able to help you with. I'm a bit busy right now, but I'd be happy to give you any insight that my experience may provide. The whole question of greetings in Japanese is a bit complicated due to the formality of the language and the situation, and they are generally not readily translatable into English. But I'm glad to hear that you're feeling a bit better about all of this since interacting with her.

tippy · June-23rd-2008, 01:50 PM

Thanks, Al and everybody else too. This is just me basically freaking out. There are several reasons for me not to travel right now and since my presence you know wasn't required and my brother was okay with it I was not going to go but now since I *am* going, I really had wanted to make some sort of welcoming gesture to her parents who do not speak English - not personal gesture necessarily but in the sense of our family to theirs. It would be cool if there were some traditional token of some kind to effect this v. spoken thing but probably what it would mean is me writing something (ala brief toast) and have it translated to Japanese and learn the Japanese which I am not going to have time to do now because of everything I have to do just to get off the ground on Wednesday but hey like if anyone knows a Japanese wedding proverb or some such thing and could spell phonetically that would be cool. I'm sure not being well prepared will make it cheesy and lame anyway so I'll just go there smile, nod, project magical feelings, and watch my alcohol intake.

Does it mean anything bad if I wear black?

Douglas · June-23rd-2008, 02:37 PM

Tippy, a slight spin on the story. I got married in Tokyo. My wife and I went to the local town hall, took a ticket, waited till our number came up and then went to the counter, gave the necessary documents to be changed and that was it. No-one else involved. Partly it was because the choice was either very limited or huge. And as huge also has to be done very well, both my wife's abhorrence of excess in Japan and the difficulty we would have faced in organising it from Paris meant it was never going to fly.

tippy · June-23rd-2008, 03:02 PM

so just like getting a driver's license or a dozen donuts or something.

I guess it is a different way of looking at it. I guess for me entering into a legal commitment like that is horrendously serious. They don't even know if they will have kids so I wonder, why do it? Getting married is like the opposite of insurance. It's like anti-insurance. If it works out - fine - your together but you would choose to be together anyway. If it doesn't work out though, get ready to roll out thousands of dollars to get unhitched.

heh heh heh

Jon Abbey · June-23rd-2008, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tippy

They don't even know if they will have kids so I wonder, why do it?

for us it was the only way we could be together, but if both people are US citizens and they're not going to have kids, I'm pretty much with you.

tippy · June-23rd-2008, 04:55 PM

I think I have sunk to new lows in this thread. Everything is good and going to be fine. I will tell you how it went when I get back.

timoleon · June-24th-2008, 11:33 AM

i have seen many japanese movies and had two japanese friends in the past,but i'm afraid i don't know details about marriage ceremonies there.
maybe they have a specific way to find pleasure since they generally don't like the big fuss and being the person of the day like it happens with a wedding.

in any case it was one of the best threads i read lately and showed some fears and beliefs that we all have and how sometimes it's difficult to understand your own brother!
i hope things will get better for you,tippy.

clinthopson · June-24th-2008, 12:49 PM

Tip,

If they hand you a sword and mention seppuku, get the hell outta there!

tippy · June-24th-2008, 01:30 PM

Hey dudes, June is anxiety month and I have been an asshole exploiting my familial relationships online. My brother is Joe Cool - seriously - so content, ready to settle down, no jitters, he is sure sure and sweet as hell to boot but NO pushover (I didn't raise him like that). I trust his judgment so implicitly that there is just no way if this wasn't the right thing for him, for them that he would be so calm and happy right now.

I do think it did alarm us his family to hear "we are getting married, in the courthouse, it's no big deal, no big wedding, we are not having anyone there, family doesn't speak English [aside: I found out they do speak a little], fiancee uncomfortable with awkwardness of situation..." and I just think the message that we got, some of us - that of REJECTION - they don't want us at the wedding - plus I'm not a mom so I don't know how being a devoted mom not invited to wedding feels but I suggested to my brother that he should double check with her because she probably feels really badly but you know she wouldn't show it or say anything so...

anyway...I do think they are so certain of their decison, their partnership, that the ceremony is for them a formality - not about to ask people to spend thousands of dollars just to get there etc. - when they just wanted to be legally joined and then live their lives you know without the anxiety-prone crazy in-laws...HAHAHAHAHAHA

okay. More later apres likely. I thank you, Al, here very much for the quick Japanese lesson and phonics.

clinthopson · June-24th-2008, 02:17 PM

I'm happy I'm an only child.

Ron Thorne · June-24th-2008, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tippy

Ron, for real, real? Do chime in. And congratulations!!! I'm sure it will be fine it's just the lack of felicity when you want to be happy for someone is kind of a bummer.

Yes, for real, real.

First of all, many Japanese people have embraced the western wedding tradition and taken it to a new level in terms of extravagance. We've witnessed many such events, in fact.

Our son Justin and future bride Rika found themselves in a similar situation to Jon and his wife and others — having a relatively small window of opportunity in which to get married in order to satisfy visa requirements, etc. Rika had come to California to seek her master's degree at California State University Northridge, and had graduated. So, she and Justin were married by a Justice of the Peace in an office in L.A. nearly two years ago. They were not pleased to feel the need to go that route, but it was a matter of practicality at the time. No one else was present except for a couple of witnesses, friends of Rika's.

Yesterday, a lovely ceremony took place at La Cañada Flintridge Country Club, with Justin's grandfather (Patti's Dad) officiating, and our daughter, other son and their families present, along with Justin's grandfather, Rika's parents, grandparents, sister and two dear friends of Justin's from Japan, including his best man, David, who he knew in Japan. David is from the U.K., but lives in Nagoya and is also married to a Japanese lady. Our two families are now blended, and it's wonderful to have an even more extended family than we already enjoyed. Our two other children were already married, so this was a much-anticipated chapter. I'll post some photos later, possibly after we return to Alaska this weekend.

Thanks for the good wishes, Tippy.

Monte Smith · June-24th-2008, 03:42 PM

There's just something about a Japanese civil wedding ceremony, isn't there? Here's my dad (from Los Angeles) marrying his bride (OK, from Akron) at the American Embassy in Tokyo. The embassy--they're sentimental.

And the honeymoon:

shrugs · June-25th-2008, 01:35 PM

don't forget the Habu Sake

Jazzzoline · June-25th-2008, 02:37 PM

There are some "wedding machines" in Las Vegas. Sounds easier.

Tippy, your brother may have some other "chance" to marry again. Or maybe they'll just do like Céline Dion and marry again, just for the sake of it.

For my own wedding : my mom and my mother in law decided everything so I wasn't interested in it at all.

Erik Lund · June-25th-2008, 10:03 PM

I was engaged once (no, really) and it didn't happen because the family on her side was totally opposed (my family had no idea). At first they were totally thrilled about it - especially the dad - but slowly, the mother didn't like the idea of her only daughter (7 sons) leaving her and she has final say within the family.

I was crushed for a solid 6 months. The day I found out was my best friend's birthday party - 200 people and here I am - blackout drunk in front of his fridge writing those magnet poems and apparently depressed the hell out of everyone. I don't remember doing it...

But this was Chinese, not Japanese. From my time hanging out with a LOT of asians - and mostly Japanese, they don't really mind the "anglo" thing - as long as the guy is successful/doing-what-he-wants/etc. Now Koreans... I dated a Korean girl for almost 2 years and her parents (living in Queens) never knew, because she said they would only want her dating a Korean guy (and especially one in business or medicine - not a lowly waiter/musician).

Erik Lund · June-25th-2008, 10:04 PM

I should also say - good thing it's your brother marrying a girl and not a sister marrying a Japanese man. The divorce rate for Japanese guys and American women is around 95% or higher (as of about 4 years ago...)