The Thread of Change

[Surfer]

Re: The Democratic mandate for change

There is no mandate, and Dems better remember this. Obama is a very good campaigner and a candidate I supported from the beginning. I am very very happy he won, obviously. But is he a transformational figure and politician and governor? That remains to be seen. He was, without a doubt, the beneficiary of an unprecendented confluence of events that helped him be elected. I think (and after his speech last night, I think he knows) he and the Dems have not received a mandate.

America is a fundamentally conservative (I dont mean that in the political sense of Republicanism) and at times reactionary country, and has been for the past 30 years or more. As an example, California, one of the so-called most liberal states in the union, has just passed a proposition which will rewrite the state constitution to ban same sex marriage, writing bigotry and discrimination into our state charter. Regardless of what the electoral map may look like, America's thinking has not suddenly become "more liberal" and Obama is certainly not a liberal politican. (he also thinks marriage should be between a man and a woman, though is against a constitutional amendment). He is a centrist in the Clinton mold, which may be what America needs to solve its bitter partisanship.

But here is the key point: When most Americans say they want change, what they mean is they want a change from the current status quo and BACK to an early status quo where climate change was simething to think about but in the future, gas was $3 a gallon, people could put things on credit and pay it off later, Phoenix / Vegas /LA were viable communities, clean water was plentiful, gays werent asking for equal rights, we werent in intractable land wars in Asia, Detroit made trucks and people bought them, the Dow went up and up and up, etc etc. As one woman was quoted as saying last night on the news, "I want change as long as it doesnt cost me a lot."

Look, last night was a time for celebration both for the historic cultural moment it represented and also for the rejection of George Bush and the Republican ideology of the last 8 years. But Americans and particularly Dems would be better off if they jettisoned this idea that Obama is the Black Messiah who has come down and will wave his magic wand and pass magic legislation and will get us out of this huge environmental, economic, social, and political hole we've dug for ourselves, and start thinking about their own personal choices that they make for themselve and their families everyday as a way of sparking REAL change in their own lives and in their communities. Most Americans want change as long as it doesnt inconvenience them, as long as it doesnt disrupt their current lifestyle. Obama is just one guy. Let's see if this groundswell of hope and optimism carries itself back into state, local, and community change. Let's see if Americans are really ready to look directly at the 21st century and the challenges we are facing.

I'm cautiously optimistic. But I'm also cautiously pessimistic.

[Surfer]

yes, and I was encouraged by it. but change is not about Obama. any significant change will only come from our lives and communities, not from Obama.

[tippy]

I was sure he had mentioned that in his speech is all. He said he would be honest with us and that we had to do the work. I guess I kind of feel like people criticize Obama by saying we should do stuff that comes from his own rhetoric and it gets to me.

[Surfer]

We want universal health care, but dont raise my taxes.

We want to fight two wars overseas, but dont reinstitute the draft.

We want a change to renewal, alternative fuel and energy, but gas should remain $3.

We want the economy to grow, but dont ask me to change my current lifestyle.

We want to proclaim we live in a land of liberty, but dont want to give gays equal rights.

I'm not criticizing Obama yet, but let's see if he calls us to task for any of these things.

[Pete C]

I'd like to be more sanguine, but I'm not counting on much more than

[tippy]

Originally Posted by Surfer

We want universal health care, but dont raise my taxes.

We want to fight two wars overseas, but dont reinstitute the draft.

We want a change to renewal, alternative fuel and energy, but gas should remain $3.

We want the economy to grow, but dont ask me to change my current lifestyle.

We want to proclaim we live in a land of liberty, but dont want to give gays equal rights.

I'm not criticizing Obama yet, but let's see if he calls us to task for any of these things.

I am sorry, Surfer, I didn't mean my last post to be all-inclusive to what you had written. I think you make very interesting points about this idea of return to the past. I had not thought of it before.

[Pete C]

This kind of change, however "symbolic," is not insignificant, though:

"This is the fall of the Berlin Wall times ten," Rama Yade, France's black junior minister for human rights, told French radio. "America is rebecoming a New World.


"On this morning, we all want to be American so we can take a bite of this dream unfolding before our eyes," she said.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_elections_world_view

[tippy]

I agree, Pete. In all this time, I haven't seen much coverage of how closely the rest of the world has been following this election until I saw a little bit last light and it truly is a big moment. I do think Obama is extraordinary and people might laugh at this but he comes to represent in my mind, the best part of ourselves. You know the stuff that we dared not hope for knowing our own human failings and perceiving that others are human failures too (at achieving the best part of ourselves). Such as the believing in the possibility that the U.S. could elect a black president. It's huge. His speech last night to me was powerful for acknowledging what is real - when do our typical leaders EVER do that? - what is in front of us and that we would have to take action - he talked about sacrifice - but that we COULD do it too. Who talks like this? ALL leaders should, but when is the last time someone spoke like this? Acknowledging the hardship which we haven't tasted yet, not most of us yet, and saying we could do it. Thinking of 100 years from now... It's so simple but nobody has done this before because they haven't really wanted to empower the citizenry to build their own nation - they only wanted the power to help theirs so they keep this empowerment talk out of their rhetoric.

[GoodSpeak]

Originally Posted by Surfer

Re: The Democratic mandate for change

There is no mandate, and Dems better remember this. Obama is a very good campaigner and a candidate I supported from the beginning. I am very very happy he won, obviously. But is he a transformational figure and politician and governor? That remains to be seen. He was, without a doubt, the beneficiary of an unprecendented confluence of events that helped him be elected. I think (and after his speech last night, I think he knows) he and the Dems have not received a mandate.

America is a fundamentally conservative (I dont mean that in the political sense of Republicanism) and at times reactionary country, and has been for the past 30 years or more. As an example, California, one of the so-called most liberal states in the union, has just passed a proposition which will rewrite the state constitution to ban same sex marriage, writing bigotry and discrimination into our state charter. Regardless of what the electoral map may look like, America's thinking has not suddenly become "more liberal" and Obama is certainly not a liberal politican. (he also thinks marriage should be between a man and a woman, though is against a constitutional amendment). He is a centrist in the Clinton mold, which may be what America needs to solve its bitter partisanship.

But here is the key point: When most Americans say they want change, what they mean is they want a change from the current status quo and BACK to an early status quo where climate change was simething to think about but in the future, gas was $3 a gallon, people could put things on credit and pay it off later, Phoenix / Vegas /LA were viable communities, clean water was plentiful, gays werent asking for equal rights, we werent in intractable land wars in Asia, Detroit made trucks and people bought them, the Dow went up and up and up, etc etc. As one woman was quoted as saying last night on the news, "I want change as long as it doesnt cost me a lot."

Look, last night was a time for celebration both for the historic cultural moment it represented and also for the rejection of George Bush and the Republican ideology of the last 8 years. But Americans and particularly Dems would be better off if they jettisoned this idea that Obama is the Black Messiah who has come down and will wave his magic wand and pass magic legislation and will get us out of this huge environmental, economic, social, and political hole we've dug for ourselves, and start thinking about their own personal choices that they make for themselve and their families everyday as a way of sparking REAL change in their own lives and in their communities. Most Americans want change as long as it doesnt inconvenience them, as long as it doesnt disrupt their current lifestyle. Obama is just one guy. Let's see if this groundswell of hope and optimism carries itself back into state, local, and community change. Let's see if Americans are really ready to look directly at the 21st century and the challenges we are facing.

I'm cautiously optimistic. But I'm also cautiously pessimistic.

A Rebuttal:

This is a certain mandate and of epic proportions.

Though there are those habitual fence sitters who claim the high ground simply upon their insistence that they pretend to know more than the people who are in politics....most are cowards and flee at the slightest suggestion of commitment to one side or the other.

In today's world, we need people willing to take a chance on life. Those who otherwise might be comfortable in their own chosen existence, far from the reality of declaring oneself to be for one ideology or against another. Those who chose to pretend a safe distance by demeaning both sides of the political area. Those who are a blight on society and a certain hindrance to real change because they are afraid to take a stand.

Here is the key point: The future of this country depends upon people with the huevos to do the right thing. To take a stand on the issues and not sit idly on the sidelines whining or casting stones at anything they, themselves, are too wimpy to commit to. It takes absolutely no talent to offer "warnings" predisposed to failure forcasted by the person pretending to know it all.

The time is now to get off the fence and take a side. Flush that attitude of yours and embrace the change that is before us. Too much work has been done to allow the whiners of this country to be a drag on Barack Obama and his historic election and the certain mandate by the people of color and the people of integrity in the United States of America who voted for him.

Complaining and faux warnings are easy. Now where is the commitment? Change only happens when the fence sitters quit the complaining and negativity and join in the fight. To do less, is to be part of the problem not the part of the solution.


Fence sitters and whiners need to grab the clue...or quit the complaining.



Grab on or get lost.

[rollhead]

Surfer is right. (Great work!)

Otherwise, why wasn't Clinton transitional?

And how will Obama be different? Especially since Obama's cabinet and White House is going to be well stocked with Clinton retreads? (Rahm Emanuel and John Podesta, to name two, right off the bat) (Not to mention Pete Rouse, the former chief of staff to that consummate Democratic candy-ass Tom Daschle.)

I am not ready yet to say that we have seen real "change" -- not yet, at least.

I suspect that we can wobble right, again, in eight years, even if Obama has a successful presidency (and considering who he is following, it will be a cakewalk, despite the fact we are neck deep in Republican shit.)

As far as "huevos" are concerned, Goody, Obama hasn't shown me any. He won't take on any project that he doesn't think will succeed.

It will be Clinton Redux as far as that is concerned. Obama didn't even have the moxie to support universal health care FOR ALL.

I do see him running to get in front of a parade, if possible. But not starting his own.

He will play this straight down the middle. To me, that is not "transitional." It is Same Old Shit, Different Day... but at least it won't be as stinky as Bush's.

[tippy]

Maybe, maybe not. He did what he had to do to get elected it’s true.

[Nim Chimpsky]

Tony Blair came to power as a result of deep dissatisfaction with the incumbent conservative government and desire for change in political life. Prepare to be disappointed.

[Dr Dave]

I agree with the basic premise: We want our lives to be comfortable, we don't want to sacrifice, and we don't want to change. That's what political leadership is supposed to be all about: We are in a place where we MUST change, where we MUST live through discomfort. If Barack Obama can get this message over--and demonstrate that the discomfort will be shared by all of us (this is where real political leadership comes in) then I think people will get off their ass and jam.

If he can't, well, we're pretty much fucked.

As for the rest:

"He won't take on any project that he doesn't think will succeed."

That's a strength, not a weakness.

As much as the election was about the economy, it was also about our bludgeoning foreign policy. I really do not believe a majority of Americans want to fight two wars overseas.

Nobody wants to pay more for gasoline, but people WILL do it. $4/gal. seemed to be the tipping point. This is an issue where I'm with goofy ol' Tom Friedman: Gasoline should be $4/gallon--at least! And if Detroit wants a bailout, let the price be a 35 mpg fleet average, and no goddam whining about it, either.

[Gentle Giant]

I think we live in a post-mandate world. A president can get done only what he can get done. Having the same party in power in Congress helps, but there are no fast 180's in politics. I think people will accept a little hurt if the hurt is shared and if there's evidence that the economy is turning around and we're not continuing to throw trillions of dollars and thousands of lives into a pointless war.

[rollhead]

http://www.truthdig.com/avbooth/item..._corporations/

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by Nim Chimpsky

Prepare to be disappointed.

I'm always prepared.

[Surfer]

What benchmarks (and timeframe) will you use to measure "change" from an Obama Admin.?

What change (if any) have you been inspired to make in your life and community?

- I'd like to see us out of Iraq within 2 years. I understand some troops will be left behind, I'd like to minimize that number if possible. I'd like to see us begin to severely drawn down the number in Afghanistan, over that period. My brother who was an officer in the Navy, and stayed in the reserves, is in Afghanistan right now training Afghan army officers. I think with another year Afghans need to be handed the reigns of security.

- I'd like to see Obama's number one priority be renewal energy and climate change. I'd like to see a significant and ambitious benchmark on reducing greenhouse gas emissions and challenge the Western World to match it. Somehow help China deal with its growing environmental catastrophe. I completely agree with Dr. Dave, if Detroit wants financial help, they need to agree to 35mpg fleet avg, and they need to be encouraged to develop and build clean electric (not so clean when you are burning coal to generate it, I know) cars to be sold to places like China where private car ownership is booming.

- I'd like to see a serious discussion about universal health care, and whether Americans really want it, and what it will take and cost to get it.

- I'd like Obama to step to the plate and publically say that he supports gay marriage and equal rights for all minorities. He is undoubtedly a icon / hero in the black community now, and a public statement to that effect would have a tremendous effect on public attitudes nationwide. This is how Obama can effect real change in his own communtiy. African-Americans in California voted 70% for the ban on gay marriage, while whites voted narrowly against it, Asians and Latinos were split.

In my own life,

- I'm going to donate more to charity. My wife and I are going to sit down and identify areas that are important to us, maybe 4-5, and then do some research online to find worthy charities that affect change in their / our communties. Right now I think I donate about 2% of our household salary, mostly to one, sometimes two charities. I think we can afford at least 5%, which is really a pittance if you think about it.

- I already drive a Prius, but the next car I buy will be a diesel that I convert to clean biodiesel.

Any other ideas?

[Surfer]

Change you can believe in:

http://www.goodearthcoffee.com/pledge.html

"coffee drinkers toss away 28 billion disposable cups of coffee each year"

Brew your coffee at home.

[Gary Sisco]

Well, I'm not in that demographic, at least. I use the same mug every day. Two cups, that's all.

I saw an article that put the campaign spending into a weird kind of perspective. All told, it was a small fraction of the amount Americans spend on potato chips in a year.

As for wheels, I look at it this way. I can't drive enough in the rest of my life to save in energy what it costs in energy to make an auto, any auto, raw materials extraction on through to market -- and disposal, which must also be factored in as both social and ecological cost.

So, I'll drive ours til it dies and replace it with a used model that already exists.

[Surfer]

Originally Posted by Gary Sisco

So, I'll drive ours til it dies and replace it with a used with high mpg rating model that already exists.

That is actually the best enivornmental plan of all. Drive it til it dies.

[Monte Smith]

Originally Posted by Surfer

Brew your coffee at home.

Fuck the Earth, save your wallet. Most of the so-called environmental fixes (curly light bulbs, cars that run on human effluent) can be justified by reasons other than The Sky Is Falling. Can be justified by reasons like The Bank Account Is Pathetic.

Also Surf, congrats and shit that you want to be moral and change, change, change, but what about your desire to give more to charity or drive a better car had to wait to have a Change Agent in Washington? I give to charity and recently put energy efficient windows in my house but didn't vote for Obama.

Please forgive my use of Sarcastic Capitals.

[Monte Smith]

Originally Posted by Surfer

That is actually the best enivornmental plan of all. Drive it til it dies.

Doing that, too.

[Surfer]

Originally Posted by Monte Smith

Fuck the Earth, save your wallet. Most of the so-called environmental fixes (curly light bulbs, cars that run on human effluent) can be justified by reasons other than The Sky Is Falling. Can be justified by reasons like The Bank Account Is Pathetic.

Also Surf, congrats and shit that you want to be moral and change, change, change, but what about your desire to give more to charity or drive a better car had to wait to have a Change Agent in Washington? I give to charity and recently put energy efficient windows in my house but didn't vote for Obama.

Please forgive my use of Sarcastic Capitals.

That was exactly the point of my original post, Monte. You dont need Obama to spur change in your life and in your community. But if people feel impelled by this wellspring of hope, then I hope they carry that back to their lives and community and transform it into action.

That was my original point and the point of this thread.

What percentage of your household income do you give to charity? Just wondering and feel free to decline to answer if you think I'm prying.

[Surfer]

Originally Posted by Monte Smith

Fuck the Earth, save your wallet. Most of the so-called environmental fixes (curly light bulbs, cars that run on human effluent) can be justified by reasons other than The Sky Is Falling. Can be justified by reasons like The Bank Account Is Pathetic.

Actually, biodeisel is more expensive than regular gas right now.

[Monte Smith]

Originally Posted by Surfer

What percentage of your household income do you give to charity? Just wondering and feel free to decline to answer if you think I'm prying.

As a percentage of income, I'm not sure, Surf. I know my wife gives more thousands of dollars to the church than I am comfortable with. When I was a kid, it was two dollars a week into the basket at Mass. My wife is from a different tradition and she believes in what I would call Utter Suckerdom (tithing). I complain only mildly, constantly, because this money is earmarked (damn the word) for a child rescue center in Sierra Leone, local food banks, home building in impoverished Appalachia, and such worthy projects. I give on my own to the Ku Klux Klan and the Home for Retired Nazis. No, just joking. My giving is more about improving the mind. I support our local library with time and money and the youth soccer association with same. We give blood and we help out the Red Cross at disaster time. They say that Republicans are more charitable in their personal lives than Democrats; dunno if that is true but I support the myth in reality.

[Jon Abbey]

Originally Posted by Surfer

That is actually the best environmental plan of all. Drive it til it dies.

actually the best environmental plan of all is not to own a car and use public transportation. I get that's not an option for everyone, but it is for me, I haven't driven a car in probably 15 years.

[LennyH]

Originally Posted by Surfer

- I already drive a Prius, but the next car I buy will be a diesel that I convert to clean biodiesel.

I've thought about this as well, Surfer. What's your plan to get the biodiesel?

In my area there is a mercedes that runs on vegetable oil. Not sure where they get it, though. There's only so much left over oil from fast food joints, etc.

If I had the time right now, I'd love to convert something like a chevy S-10 pickup to run on 100% battery power. It can be done with used lead acid batteries and it's not far fetched to get 50 or 60 miles between charges.

I had a chance to get a natural gas powered mini-van for dirt cheap a couple of years ago but passed it up.

[Jeffrey Wozniak]

Originally Posted by LennyH

I had a chance to get a natural gas powered mini-van for dirt cheap a couple of years ago but passed it up.

So, you talk a good game, but when it comes right down to it you're not willing to put your money where your mouth is.

Reminds me of a certain Nobel Peace Prize winner I know...

[Monte Smith]

Originally Posted by Jon Abbey

actually the best environmental plan of all is not to own a car and use public transportation. I get that's not an option for everyone, but it is for me, I haven't driven a car in probably 15 years.

All we really need to do is build intensive urban environments from coast to coast and this whole "green" thing could be solved by subways.

[Surfer]

Originally Posted by LennyH

I've thought about this as well, Surfer. What's your plan to get the biodiesel?

To get the actual biodiesel fuel? There are biodiesel filling stations in SF, SJ, Berkeley, and Santa Cruz. So as far as the Bay Area, that's pretty much everywhere I want to go.

As far as the car, supposedly you can transform a diesel engine to biodiesel for about $1200 for VWs and sedans, $1500 for SUVs or trucks. There are several garages in the East Bay that do it.