Old January-5th-2009, 03:06 PM   #1
Scott Dolan
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"Ch-ch-ch-CHANGES..."

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0109/17043.html


Let the post partisan era begin!!!
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Old January-5th-2009, 03:36 PM   #2
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Aka it's my Party and I'll cry if I want to.
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Old January-5th-2009, 03:42 PM   #3
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I think I'd be disappointed if after the last 8 years, the Dems played fair and soft with the Republicans. The election is over, it's time for revenge.
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Old January-5th-2009, 03:56 PM   #4
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I think it's great.

I love watching a party make all sorts of power grabs that will eventually come back to bite them in the ass.

i.e. all of the consolidation of Presidential powers that took place under the Bush admin.

Note to Republicans, Obama ain't just going to give them back.


Hahahahahaha.....

Dumbasses...
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Old January-5th-2009, 04:07 PM   #5
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I think we should just go back to having a king.




Nothing to do with anything but this reminds me that in my travels someone told me that the Barcelonese lisp because they were mimicking the royal in charge at one point. Does anyone know if this is actually true?
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Old January-5th-2009, 04:17 PM   #6
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Nothing to do with anything but this reminds me that in my travels someone told me that the Barcelonese lisp because they were mimicking the royal in charge at one point. Does anyone know if this is actually true?
The lisp is more closely associated with castilian speech, though I suppose catalonians have it as well. The story of its origin is well known but most likely apocryphal.
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Old January-5th-2009, 04:39 PM   #7
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oh - I never heard the story before! I didn't even know about this until I heard someone distinctly say grathias and I had to ask my friend about it just a few months ago.
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Old January-5th-2009, 05:06 PM   #8
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oh - I never heard the story before! I didn't even know about this until I heard someone distinctly say grathias and I had to ask my friend about it just a few months ago.

My mother told me that story about the Castillian lisp and the being associated with a royal at the time who had a lisp.
Nowadays speaking Castillian Spanish is considered an affectation, especially if you do it in Mexico.
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Old January-5th-2009, 05:07 PM   #9
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I think we should just go back to having a king.

Those who are in power are slowly but surely moving you in that direction, tippy. Good for you!

At least the Dems aren't going to rise above Republican tactics. This hasn't even started yet and I'm already loving the hypocrisy.

Revenge, indeed.

Lessons learned = zero

I guess we're either going to continue to swing back and forth from one party to another having delusions about a permanent majority. Ah, the genius of our elected officials.
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Old January-5th-2009, 05:08 PM   #10
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oh - I never heard the story before! I didn't even know about this until I heard someone distinctly say grathias and I had to ask my friend about it just a few months ago.
I should have said it's well known among spanish speakers.
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Old January-5th-2009, 05:10 PM   #11
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Nowadays speaking Castillian Spanish is considered and affectation, especially if you do it in Mexico.
I won't speak for other latin americans, but I personally find it grating. Something to do with our historical relationship with the so called 'madre patria'.
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Old January-5th-2009, 05:19 PM   #12
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I won't speak for other latin americans, but I personally find it grating. Something to do with our historical relationship with the so called 'madre patria'.
I thought it was something like that. Thanks Sergio.
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Old January-5th-2009, 07:56 PM   #13
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Actually, that's not what bothers me about same-old-same-old. But this does. It bothers the hell out of me. Tax cuts are lousy tools for economic stimulus; I thought the President Elect knew that...
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Old January-5th-2009, 08:10 PM   #14
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Yeah, but, just as a thought, so is giving a trillion and a half dollars to financial services. They aren’t issuing checks like Bush did twice. If we’re going down for awhile, I don’t mind having $500 extra in my pocket.

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Old January-5th-2009, 09:35 PM   #15
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Can he repeat the choke on a pretzel routine?
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Old January-5th-2009, 10:33 PM   #16
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Actually, that's not what bothers me about same-old-same-old. But this does. It bothers the hell out of me. Tax cuts are lousy tools for economic stimulus; I thought the President Elect knew that...

Yeah, really.

They were so goddamn successful before, HEY, why not try it again!!


Lesson learned = zero
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Old January-6th-2009, 09:03 AM   #17
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I heard someone distinctly say grathias
Grathias or grathiath?
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Old January-6th-2009, 10:16 AM   #18
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I love watching a party make all sorts of power grabs that will eventually come back to bite them in the ass.

i.e. all of the consolidation of Presidential powers that took place under the Bush admin.

Note to Republicans, Obama ain't just going to give them back.
Say what you want about the expansion of executive power under the Bush administration (either it was an attempt to square up to the threat of terrorism or it was an attempt to create Orwell's 1984 in America, you choose), but one thing it was not was a personal or partisan power grab. As Scott rightly notes, nowhere in the Patriot Act or the wiretap law or the statute creating the Homeland Security Department is it writ "these powers expire January 20, 2009" or "null and void if the Democrats win an election." Although there are sunset clauses in most of the stuff. These are powers that whoever steers the government can wield for good or ill.

Ms Pelosi's neat tricks this week, however, are a merely partisan power grab. What she is doing is making it easier for the Dems to strongarm the minority in acts of legislation, and harder for the Republicans to accomplish anything on their own in the House. That is for good or ill, you judge, I'm sure you will, but there is no other motive here than an increase of partisan power.

A Republican majority had a similar temptation with the so-called "nuclear option" in reference to judicial confirmations. You'll recall that the Dems were acting in concert to prevent cloture votes for Republican nominees, thus denying the would-be judges a yea or nay vote before the whole body. To Republicans, that seemed unfair (although the Repubs are hardly without hypocrisy on the issue)--just have a vote, for corn's sake--but it was within the rules as the GOP majority had established them. One solution, the nuclear option, was to change the rules and lower the bar for a cloture vote, thus taking the weapon out of the hands of the Dems and getting these nominees an up or down vote. But wise heads in the Republican caucus (rare at the best of times) counseled against it, since it would be playing hardball with the minority and (gulp) one day the GOP might find itself in the minority.

Pelosi seems not to have such qualms. Good for her, the sassy minx. Qualms are for losers or those who might one day lose or have sympathy with a loser.
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Old January-6th-2009, 10:19 AM   #19
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Monte's neat trick is to use Nancy Pelosi as a punching bag (The neat part being that the Speaker is indeed as craven as Monte makes her out to be...)

If nothing else, I'm hoping the President-Elect, who once taught Constitutional Law, will bring the Executive Branch back into the world of legality.
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Old January-6th-2009, 10:24 AM   #20
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Monte's neat trick is to use Nancy Pelosi as a punching bag (The neat part being that the Speaker is indeed as craven as Monte makes her out to be...)
My neat trick is to respond to a news item on Nancy Pelosi.
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Old January-6th-2009, 10:26 AM   #21
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Grathias or grathiath?
good point. probably the latter.

What is the proper accent to Gracias anyway? I can never figure it out - is it Gra-CI-as or GRA-ci-as?
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Old January-6th-2009, 11:47 AM   #22
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Tax cuts are lousy tools for economic stimulus
Yes, but they're pretty good tools for political popularity stimulus.

Americans at all levels seem to be like little kids when it comes to taxes and budgeting.
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Old January-6th-2009, 11:56 AM   #23
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Whether Barack Obama taught constitutional law or not, he has shown that he can renege on promises as well as any other politician.

So, nothing at all has changed -- so far.

As far as Bush not making a "power grab" for the Republicans, that is silliness.

Both parties make partisan power grabs, regardless of how long their hold on power is likely to last.

Their concept of time is about as long as their pathetic little peckers. Or in the case of Nancy Pelosi, extends as far as the points on her Prada pumps.

Pelosi a "sassy minx"? She seems more like a dimwit to me. Now, if you want a "sassy minx," I will give you one:


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Old January-6th-2009, 12:08 PM   #24
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As far as Bush not making a "power grab" for the Republicans, that is silliness.

Both parties make partisan power grabs, regardless of how long their hold on power is likely to last.

Agreed.

For Christ's sake, Monte. You can't possibly believe otherwise. You're far smarter than that, and usually have a far more balanced political opinion.
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Old January-6th-2009, 12:13 PM   #25
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Monte, what about the signing statements Bush issued? Were those a partisan power grab?
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Old January-6th-2009, 12:20 PM   #26
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I've been pointing out that institutionalization of power from the start, Monte, but you are being disingenuous about motive, here, not that I disagree with comments about Pelosi. Cheney et al have made no attempt to be anything but clear that they supported -- and accomplished -- an "unfettered" executive. (Those "fetters" being the Constitution.) But of course an executive without fetters is a dictator and can be nothing else. Their mistake, one made often in the US and not just at the federal level is forgetting that power accrues to offices as offices, not just to the person occupying the office at any one time.

No one has to write anything in any law. They just took power and shrugged at objection. The alleged opposition sputtered but did nothing. As usual.

But now there is a much more powerful presidency than there was when they took over. Power is centralized in the executive now -- by the Bushists -- to a much greater extent than ever before in American history. Matters not what's written or unwritten. The centralization of power is now a political fact of life in the US. It's also precedent for unconstitutional behavior.

It's a classic mistake. The thing that guards against it is of course commitment to political principle. Nothing else.

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Old January-6th-2009, 01:38 PM   #27
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Monte, what about the signing statements Bush issued? Were those a partisan power grab?
They were definitely an asssertion of executive power against the powers of the legislature. As Gary says, the Bush admin was not shy about flexing the muscles of the "imperial presidency," although I think Gary goes too far in his condemnatory fashion. Were the signing statements a partisan power grab? No.
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Old January-6th-2009, 01:52 PM   #28
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Oh, I get it.

It was an office grab.

I think you give political foresight a little too much credence.
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Old January-12th-2009, 06:56 PM   #29
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Please, stop me if you've heard this one before!!!
Obama unlikely to probe Bush anti-terrorist policies

By David Johnston and Charlie Savage
The New York Times
Updated: 01/12/2009 12:23:50 PM MST




Washington » President-elect Barack Obama signaled in an interview broadcast Sunday that he was unlikely to authorize a broad inquiry into Bush administration programs like domestic eavesdropping or the treatment of terrorism suspects.

But Obama also said prosecutions would proceed if the Justice Department found evidence that laws had been broken.

As a candidate, Obama broadly condemned some counterterrorism tactics of the Bush administration and its claim that the measures were justified under executive powers. But his administration will face competing demands: pressure from liberals who want wide-ranging criminal investigations, and the need to establish trust among the country's intelligence agencies. At the Central Intelligence Agency, in particular, many officers flatly oppose any further review and may protest the prospect of a broad inquiry into their past conduct.

In the clearest indication so far of his thinking on the issue, Obama said on the ABC News program "This Week With George Stephanopoulos" that there should be prosecutions if "somebody has blatantly broken the law" but that his legal team was still evaluating interrogation and detention issues and would examine "past practices."

Obama added that he also had "a belief that we need to look forward as opposed to looking backwards."

"And part of my job," he continued, "is to make sure that, for example, at the CIA, you've got extraordinarily talented people who are working very hard to keep Americans safe. I don't want them to suddenly feel like they've got spend their all their time looking over their shoulders."



Waterboarding and wiretapping
The Bush administration has authorized interrogation tactics like waterboarding that critics say skirted federal laws and international treaties, and domestic wiretapping without warrants. But the details of those programs have never been made public, and administration officials have said their actions were legal under a president's wartime powers.
There was no immediate reaction from Capitol Hill, where there has been a growing sense that Obama was not inclined to pursue these matters. In resisting pressure for a wider inquiry, he risks the ire of influential Democratic lawmakers on Congressional judiciary and intelligence committees and core constituencies who hoped his election would cast a spotlight on President Bush's antiterror efforts.

The issue will also be an important early test of his relationship with conservatives in Congress and the country's intelligence agencies; both groups oppose any further review.

On other terrorism issues, Obama suggested in the interview that his approach might be more measured. He said the closing of the detention center at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, which once seemed to be an early top objective, was not likely to happen during the first 100 days of his administration.

"It is more difficult than I think a lot of people realize," Obama said, "and we are going to get it done. But part of the challenge that you have is that you have a bunch of folks that have been detained, many of whom who may be very dangerous, who have not been put on trial or have not gone through some adjudication."

Obama has in the past condemned waterboarding, and he was explicit in the interview that he regarded the use of the technique, in which a subject is made to believe that he is drowning, as torture, prohibited by statute. And the president-elect said he disagreed with Vice President Dick Cheney, who has defended the practice.

"Vice President Cheney, I think, continues to defend what he calls extraordinary measures or procedures when it comes to interrogations," Obama said, "and from my view, waterboarding is torture."

Obama's choice for attorney general, Eric Holder, is widely expected to be asked about his views on these issues at his confirmation hearing this week. Associates say Holder is open to prosecutions based on specific accusations but is less eager to use the criminal law to commence wide-ranging inquiries. Before being chosen for the Obama Cabinet, he said there should be "a reckoning" over Bush administration policies.


'Doesn't want to look vengeful'
Lawyers who represented Bush administration officials over the years expressed little surprise that Obama's legal and national security team had lost whatever appetite it might have had for delving into alleged misdeeds of the Bush years.

"A new president doesn't want to look vengeful," said a former Bush White House lawyer, Bradford Berenson, who was a Harvard law classmate of Obama and has represented administration figures as a private lawyer, "and the last thing a new administration wants to do is spend its time and energy rehashing the perceived sins of the old one.

"No matter how much the Obama administration's most extreme supporters may be screaming for blood, the president himself doesn't seem to share that bloodlust."

Moreover, any effort to conduct a wider re-examination would almost certainly provoke a backlash at the country's intelligence agencies.
Mark Lowenthal, who was the assistant director for analysis and production at the CIA from 2002 to 2005, said if agents were criminally investigated for doing something that top Bush administration officials asked them to do and that they were assured was legal, intelligence officers would be less willing to take risks to protect the country.
"There are just huge costs to the day-to-day operation of intelligence," Lowenthal, now the president of the Intelligence and Security Academy, said of a potential investigation. He added that he saw no benefit to such an effort because, he said, the public was not clamoring for it.
But it may be difficult for Obama to resist the pressure for a fuller public accounting, and lawmakers appear ready to proceed even without his support.

The House Judiciary Committee chairman, Representative John Conyers, Democrat of Michigan, has already introduced a measure to create a commission to investigate Bush's detention, interrogation and rendition policies. Conyers's bill would establish a bipartisan nine-member commission with subpoena power and a mandate "to investigate the broad range of policies" undertaken with claims that Bush's wartime powers as commander in chief trumped laws and treaties.

The measure by Conyers is not the only sign that Congress may force the issue. Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon, the second-ranking Democrat on the intelligence committee, said such a commission might not be necessary because the panel itself would press the administration to declassify as much information about CIA prisons as possible.

"With regard to the CIA interrogation program," Wyden said in an interview, "if you want to make a break with the flawed policies of the past, as the president-elect has said he wishes to do, you have got to come clean about what happened over the past eight years, and that is why I'm going to push very hard to declassify these documents."
Obama's legal team could also be forced to react to litigation pending before federal courts. For example, the Bush administration has invoked the state-secrets privilege to avoid disclosing information about its surveillance program being sought in a civil lawsuit. The Obama legal team will have to decide how to handle that case.

In a related area, Conyers has indicated that he intends to keep pressing a House Judiciary Committee investigation into the Bush administration's firings of nine United States attorneys and other accusations of political favoritism in hiring at the Justice Department.


'Public airing'
The Bush administration has blocked subpoenas from Congress for documents and testimony by White House officials in that case, citing executive privilege. Last week, Conyers reissued the subpoenas to Bush's chief of staff, Joshua Bolten, and his former White House counsel, Harriet Miers, in the name of the new Congress, ensuring that a lawsuit over the dispute will stay alive into the Obama presidency.

Obama is facing even more intense pressure from liberal, human-rights and civil-liberties groups to allow some kind of investigation into the Bush administration's terrorism policies.

Chris Anders, senior legislative counsel at the American Civil Liberties Union, said it would be a simple matter to start such an inquiry because the Justice Department's special prosecutor, John Durham, is already investigating whether the CIA acted illegally when it destroyed videotapes of its harsh interrogations. Anders said Durham's mandate could be expanded to look into whether the interrogations depicted on the tapes were illegal.

Some groups are focused on prosecution. Michael Ratner, president of the Center for Constitutional Rights, said prosecution efforts were justified, even if they did not lead to convictions, as a way to deter future officials from undertaking a similar "assault on the law itself."

Other groups want fuller public disclosure. They favor a commission that would answer lingering questions about exactly what happened - like disclosing how many Americans were wiretapped without warrants and making a detailed accounting of what interrogators did to each detainee and the real value of the information they obtained through the enhanced tactics.

"One of the things that is going to have to happen is an examination and, to the extent possible, a public airing of the validity of the claims that these policies enhanced our security," said Elisa Massimino, the executive director of Human Rights First. "Because there is a lot of reason to think that calculus hasn't been accurate."
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Old January-12th-2009, 07:56 PM   #30
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Happens everytime they inaugurate one of their own:

First Democrat: Those jet fighters streaking overhead in commemoration of this event! What a gratuitous display of militarism. It's stuff like that which makes us hated around the world.

Second Democrat: Oh relax. Those are our jets now.
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