Holocaust-Denying Bishop Apologizes for Causing Pain, But Doesn't Retract Denial

[Pete C]

VATICAN CITY – A bishop recently rehabilitated by Pope Benedict XVI expressed regret Friday to the pontiff for the "distress and problems" he caused by denying the Holocaust.
In a letter to the Vatican, Bishop Richard Williamson, who recently denied in a TV interview that 6 million Jews were murdered during the Holocaust, called his remarks "imprudent."
The letter was posted on Williamson's personal blog and addressed to Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos, who has been dealing with the rehabilitation of Williamson and other renegade bishops who had been excommunicated.
The Holocaust denial had outraged Jewish groups and many others. It was not immediately clear if Williamson's letter, which contained no apology for the content of his remarks, would ease that anger.
"Amidst this tremendous media storm stirred up by imprudent remarks of mine on Swedish television, I beg of you to accept, only as is properly respectful, my sincere regrets for having caused to yourself and to the Holy Father so much unnecessary distress and problems," Williamson wrote.
Papal spokesman the Rev. Federico Lombardi said he had "nothing to say about this letter. Everyone can evaluate it as they see fit."
Lombardi said he didn't know if the pope or the cardinal had seen

[ran]

What's everyone so pisst off about , it's only a little denial.

[Scott Dolan]

Can he truly be referred to as rehabilitated if he's only to the point of calling his remarks imprudent?

Also, how does one go about rehabilitating a bishop who denies the Holocaust?

[Monte Smith]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

Also, how does one go about rehabilitating a bishop who denies the Holocaust?

That's a good question. Was this man reinstated to his office, or was he only unexcommunicated? I don't think a Holocaust denier should be in a position of authority in any respectable organization; on the other hand, I don't think a Catholic should be excommunicated for having a stupid belief about a historical, which is to say not an ecclesiastical, truth.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by Monte Smith

I don't think a Holocaust denier should be in a position of authority in any respectable organization;

So does your belief apply in this case?

[Monte Smith]

How do you mean? I don't think this ex-bishop should be a bishop. Is he a bishop?

Edit: Oh, sorry, I get it. Har har.

[Gary Sisco]

I'm continually mystified by that particular brand of crackpot. They have to have so little contact with reality as to be psychotic, really. What, did Satan manufacture the camps and the bodies and etc along with the dinosaur bones or what?

It's not just a political disapproval, in my case. I don't think anyone that divorced from reality should be allowed in any position of authority.

[Al in NYC]

The interesting part is that the Holocaust denial has nothing to do with his excommunication or his rehabilitation. He was originally thrown out of the church by John Paul 2 for having been appointed bishop without papal approval. He's from a sect of ultra-conservative Catholics, the Society of St. Pius X, who reject the reforms of Vatican II and who, until now, did not recognize the authority of subsequent popes.

From the AP: "Vatican spokesman Rev. Federico Lombardi commented that Williamson's views had no impact on the decision. Monsignor Robert Wister, professor of church history, opined that Williamson's comments may be "offensive and erroneous" but "not a heresy" and "not an excommunicable offense", calling Williamson "not a heretic, but ... a liar"." Gotta love that rather disturbing formulationm - saying mass in Latin, not OK, heresy! - lying about the deaths of millions, not the best thing you could do maybe, but OK by us. It really shows just how lost the Vatican still is in dealing with Judaism, the Holocaust, and their own historical role.

And the Vatican's PR spinning hasn't been helped much by the folks from the Pius X Society still talking crap. From Welt online:
"a priest who is a regional leader of the same ultra-traditionalist group as Williamson, the Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX), made headlines by telling a local newspaper "gas chambers existed at least for disinfecting“ inmates but he wasn’t sure if they were used to kill them.

The priest, Floriano Abrahamowicz, defended Williamson. He said it was "impossible for a Christian to be an anti-Semite“ and that the whole controversy was part of a "very powerful campaign against the Vatican“."

[Gary Sisco]

Well, the Vatican and Church have a lot to answer for from that time, themselves, so perhaps not all that surprising.

[Pedantic Wretch]

Watch the fun-filled interview here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6C9BuXe2RM

[Monte Smith]

Originally Posted by Al in NYC

Monsignor Robert Wister, professor of church history, opined that Williamson's comments may be "offensive and erroneous" but "not a heresy" and "not an excommunicable offense", calling Williamson "not a heretic, but ... a liar"." Gotta love that rather disturbing formulationm - saying mass in Latin, not OK, heresy! - lying about the deaths of millions, not the best thing you could do maybe, but OK by us.

I think Wister is right, though. One struggles for comparisons here, but imagine there was a scientist, the chair of a medical institution somewhere. And this guy was a Holocaust denier. His assertions against the Hitlerite extermination would be offensive and erroneous, but they would not be malpractice. You would want to remove the man from the board of the institution, but you wouldn't want to deny the man care.

[Dr Dave]

Originally Posted by Monte Smith

I think Wister is right, though. One struggles for comparisons here, but imagine there was a scientist, the chair of a medical institution somewhere. And this guy was a Holocaust denier. His assertions against the Hitlerite extermination would be offensive and erroneous, but they would not be malpractice. You would want to remove the man from the board of the institution, but you wouldn't want to deny the man care.

You mean you wouldn't want to deny him the right to practice medicine because other than the fact that he was a Holocaust-denier, he was a fine doctor.

Williamson is not a fine Bishop other than his beliefs about the Holocaust; he's a bishop in the Catholic Church who denies the authority of the Pope. I see no useful purpose in parsing this guy's beliefs; he's just an all-around unsavory person.

[ran]

In light of the Davos incident between turkey and israel I found it a bit odd that the denial question should still be a question at all. Not only for the Jews but for others as well.

i think it's a bit of poetic justice that two supposed allies would argue over who is the better killer. When they both have a fair share of blood on their hands.

Up until the recent war in Gaza turkey has never really challenged israel. As soon as they did and rightfully so , the jewish lobby in the US along with high ranking israeli govt. officials started to threaten turkey about allowing and endorsing the US acknowledgment of the Armenian genocide.

For turkey to speak up for what is going on is the right thing to do so far as their Muslim brothers are concerned. But in light of their continued denial of what their own history is , it's a bit much and over the top.

israel the moral bastion (?) of what a genocide is has used the Armenian genocide as a negotiating tactic with the turkish govt. for who's purposes I'm still not sure. The adl and mr. foxman along with a whole host of us/jewish/israeli lobbying groups have for whatever reason played down and cow tied the denial of the Armenian genocide.

So this particular denial in the light of what's happened in Davos is really no big deal. To my Jewish brothers talk to your people , to my turkish friends ask yourself, why would anyone want to claim this misfortune that has fallen upon them? Don't be so scared from your own history it's not the end of the world nor the Armenians.

For those all so wise objective observers who say let the historians decide this , I tell you that it has already been decided and written.

[Gentle Giant]

i was initially inclined to argue with you, ran, but i basically agree with you on most of your points. As a Jew with Turkish friends, I've tiptoed through these minefields a few times. But until you've seen the room filled with shoes at the Holocaust Museum, it tends to be about history and intellectualism rather than pure Evil.

And that's where the case of the Bishop intrigues me. To be for one thing, it would seem to me that you need to know its opposite. How can a man of God not know Evil, or knowing it refuse to accept it?

[ran]

Mr Giant I too have seen those gross atrocities , I have in fact been part of the process to build some of those houses of remembrance.

As a young man my desire to correct what was wrong was fueled by my ignorance of fear and hate. As I've gotten older I've come to accept that those vices are not the vehicles to make change. Education ,understanding and the concept of peace among people are really the virtues that all man kind should strive for.

That is what is so disappointing about the revisionist and deniers. For people who engage in this behavior the fear and ignorance of hate is too much for them to let go. How is it that the perp. is more outraged then the victim ?

I have no need to engage with anyone who denies the Armenian genocide any more then some who denies the holocaust.

But can we ignore it ? should we ignore ?

At what point does this become useless ?

Ambiguity doesn't exist it is what it is.

[Monte Smith]

Originally Posted by Dr Dave

You mean you wouldn't want to deny him the right to practice medicine because other than the fact that he was a Holocaust-denier, he was a fine doctor.

No, I would deny him the right to practice medicine. What I would not deny him is medical care.

This guy should not lead the church (and he is not a bishop any longer), but he should be allowed to receive the care of the church.

[Monte Smith]

Having said that, I would let doctors who deny the Holocaust practice medicine. Who wouldn't?

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by Dr Dave

he's a bishop in the Catholic Church who denies the authority of the Pope.

So he has his good points too...

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by Gentle Giant

How can a man of God not know Evil, or knowing it refuse to accept it?

Is that a serious question?

[Uli]

Originally Posted by Monte Smith

Having said that, I would let doctors who deny the Holocaust practice medicine. Who wouldn't?

Should crazies be allowed to practice medicine? Should evolution deniers allowed to practice medicine?

[Monte Smith]

Originally Posted by Uli

Should crazies be allowed to practice medicine?

Depends.

Originally Posted by Uli

Should evolution deniers allowed to practice medicine?

Sure. They presumably have enough biology to understand medicine. I don't know of a common procedure that hinges on a correct understanding of Darwin.

[Uli]

Originally Posted by Monte Smith

Depends.



Sure. They presumably have enough biology to understand medicine. I don't know of a common procedure that hinges on a correct understanding of Darwin.

Out of 5, I give you 3.5 for your answer.

[groover]

Originally Posted by Al in NYC

The priest, Floriano Abrahamowicz, defended Williamson. He said it was "impossible for a Christian to be an anti-Semite“ and that the whole controversy was part of a "very powerful campaign against the Vatican“."

There aren't too many Jewish Catholics Williamson has to worry about offending, and it appears one of those few is defending him.

[Gary Sisco]

Got news for ya, folks. Crazies *do* practice medicine. If I've learned anything from 15 years with Bronwyn, I've learned that.

I had to deal with similar issues when I ran the shelter, when the occasional pack of neo-nazis would show up. They'd start leaving propaganda pamphlets around about race, insulting other people staying there, and generally making bullies of themselves. I'd tell them to leave their nazi shit on the sidewalk or sleep on the sidewalk; their choice. They'd start raving about free speech and I'd laugh at them and tell them that their politics itself is a violation of people's rights so get off the stump or get the fuck out. Free speech is street speech -- public speech. It doesn't exist in other people's private space and I ruled in the shelter. Get used to it or get gone.

[Scott Dolan]

Originally Posted by Uli

Should crazies be allowed to practice medicine? Should evolution deniers allowed to practice medicine?

Yes, they're called psychiatrists.

[Gary Sisco]

There are evolution deniers who practice medicine.

[john williams]

Originally Posted by Gentle Giant

But until you've seen the room filled with shoes at the Holocaust Museum, it tends to be about history and intellectualism rather than pure Evil.

I empathise with this viewpoint although I do have difficulty with the word evil. Anyway, it is the historians who have done the difficult work of putting all the pieces together. As there is no direct photographic evidence of gassings anywhere, and this is one of the main points deniers get stuck on, historians must rely on the convergence of evidence of which the shoes are just a small part. The convergence of evidence for the Holocaust being; written documents, the wreckage of the gas chambers at Birkenau, the Birkenau Krematorium blueprints, victim and eyewitness testimony, photographs, train timetables, hair, shoes and even negative evidence - ie if 5-6 million people were not killed where did they go?. Deniers are obsessed with single proofs which simply do not exist. The 3 Aktion Reinhardt death camps, which together killed more people than Auschwitz/Birkenau were literally wiped from the face of the earth. On their own the shoes are just shoes but the entire picture that historians have revealed to the world to helps gives them meaning.

[ran]

Typically the people who deny have no hand in the things that they are denying.

Today , who are the deniers of the Holocaust in terms of govts. ? this bishop who is he ? The Iranians or at least their govt. deny and they do so because they have no other way to rally support for themselves and their own political motives.

Israel denies the Armenian genocide because it suits their own political reasons.

In both cases neither the Iranians or Israel had anything to do with the Armenian genocide. Israel wasn't a country and the Persians , well I leave that alone.

By in large and with all due respect to Germany , I don't hear or at least consider what I've heard about denial to be coming out of Germany. I live in the US and what I hear about denial are from people who couldn't point out Germany on a map.

With out the use of violence why would anyone take the KKK and the Birches of this world seriously. Show me one member of the grand dragon who saw anything in Germany and Poland and I'll slit my wrist and put it on you tube.

Ignorance , fear and hate is what fuels this.

as an Armenian who knows first hand about what happened in the distant past , the denials coming from a country that prosecute and by its own constitution ( art. 301 ) imprison their own people for insulting Turkishness, let alone minorities of that country to speak out . It amounts to the same ignorance , fear and hate.

Fear is a powerful tool.

[john williams]

Originally Posted by ran

By in large and with all due respect to Germany , I don't hear or at least consider what I've heard about denial to be coming out of Germany.

This is not the case, I'm afraid. Holocaust denial is illegal in Germany but there are a number of prominent German deniers. Germar Rudolf, Udo Walendy, Wilhelm Staglich, Manfred Roeder, Thies Christopherson and Gunther Deckert. The latter spent 5 years in jail for translating into German the pseudo-scientific Leuchter Report claiming to prove that no homicidal gas chambers existed. Rudolf lived in exile for a time after fleeing a 14 month jail sentence for writing the Rudolf Report making similar claims to Fred Leuchter. He was eventually deported back to Germany in 2005 to serve a 5 year prison sentence. Otto Remer was an early German denier who was one of the German officers who foiled the 1944 plot to kill Hitler. He is depicted in the recent film Valkyrie. Remer formed the Reich Socialist Party after the war which was eventually banned and was forced into exile in 1994 because of his views. He was an ardent supporter of both Leuchter and Rudolf.

[ran]

Originally Posted by john williams

This is not the case, I'm afraid. Holocaust denial is illegal in Germany but there are a number of prominent German deniers. Germar Rudolf, Udo Walendy, Wilhelm Staglich, Manfred Roeder, Thies Christopherson and Gunther Deckert. The latter spent 5 years in jail for translating into German the pseudo-scientific Leuchter Report claiming to prove that no homicidal gas chambers existed. Rudolf lived in exile for a time after fleeing a 14 month jail sentence for writing the Rudolf Report making similar claims to Fred Leuchter. He was eventually deported back to Germany in 2005 to serve a 5 year prison sentence. Otto Remer was an early German denier who was one of the German officers who foiled the 1944 plot to kill Hitler. He is depicted in the recent film Valkyrie. Remer formed the Reich Socialist Party after the war which was eventually banned and was forced into exile in 1994 because of his views. He was an ardent supporter of both Leuchter and Rudolf.

I stand corrected on this point but it is illegal to deny. Maybe not that much of difference but I'm not sure that making it illegal to speak against it was my point. There are nuts everywhere, but when institutions like the Catholic church or a govt. engage in this act , this is a huge problem and it usually has to do with motives that induce fear and hate. To have a few scholars who by most reasoned people would be ignored is no where near the platform that a govt or church could give. Those motives are usually, I'll leave that one alone as well.

We had a kook at UCLA , who was being given a stipend from the Turkish govt. to deny the genocide. View it how you will but he never had to face a year or two in Folsom.

I'm not trying to make this into a 1st amend. issue on the contrary in Turkey to mention the genocide will get you thrown in jail