Audiophile on a Budget

Tanager · March-30th-2003, 07:39 PM

Figured I'd start a thread devoted to folks looking to purchase equipment that is markedly better than that offered by the big-box electronics retailers, but which won't require a second mortgage, etc.

As a starter, I'm looking to put together a new system, and I have a budget of rougly $1200. System will be CD, stereo amplification (no tuner required), and speakers. I am keeping my ancient Onkyo turntable (I don't currently play enough vinyl to warrent budgeting for an upgrade, but that might change at the next go-round. Not this time, however) and my Nak BX-300 tape deck (which has the upgrade to the Sankyo transport, so no rubber idler to wear out). As a fallback, I'll still have my ADS L570 speakers, too, just in case.

For the amp, I'm going with an integrated, the Cambridge Audio A500 (I don't need the extra 15 amps over the A300, but I *do* want the tone control bypass). Price online and at a nearby B&M retailer is about $400.

For the CD, going CA again, this time the D500. Would consider the D300 if budget required it, since it also has a 24 bit DAC (and, per reviews and my personal listening tests, a pretty good one). But the D500 is my choice for now. Price is also about $400.

So for the speakers...here are my candidates (based mostly on reviews, since finding many of these brands locally has proven difficult):

Paradigm Esprit v.3 (are these out yet? Got glowing reviews, but my local Paradigm dealer says he can't get them...).

Something from the Paradigm Monitor line - I've listened to the Monitor 5, which is outside my price range ($549 locally), but I'm going back to check out the Mini-Monitors.

Axiom Audio M22ti SE - $400 (Can't ear test, since only available online in US - anyone heard these?)

Axiom Audio M3ti SE - $275, IIRC (same as above)

Athena S.5, maybe paired with P.5 (got rave reviews from Goodsound, need to get to dealer (in Charlotte, ugh) to listen)

Energy Conneisseur C-5 (Found a dealer nearby, thankfully)

Ascend Acoustics CBM-170

so...anyone have opinions? It's a damned shame that some of these (the Axioms and, I think, the Ascends) are only available online, because that makes listening tests difficult. Thankfully, Axiom has a 30-day return policy, but I don't really know if that's the right way to try out speakers.

(BTW, will be using my existing interconnects and speaker cables for now, might upgrade at the next goround).

bluenoter · March-30th-2003, 09:07 PM

Tanager, I don't know whether you "met" shrugs on the old JC board, but he was the king of JC audiophiles. If and when he shows up here, he'll give you plenty of opinions.

Brian Olewnick · March-31st-2003, 09:40 AM

I think audiophilia has been decreed illegal in Connecticut and shrugs is on the lam.

jazzfiend · March-31st-2003, 03:14 PM

Shocking news, Rita! Always thought I was the audiophile king.

Chris D · March-31st-2003, 03:15 PM

Is there anywhere you can audition Missions? They are incredibly clear and true, have great bass tonality for their size and are often available at discount. I have an older pair of the 751s I just love.

bluenoter · March-31st-2003, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jazzfiend
Shocking news, Rita! Always thought I was the audiophile king.

Don, I think of you as the Mark Murphyphile king. : )

Tanager · March-31st-2003, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris D
Is there anywhere you can audition Missions? They are incredibly clear and true, have great bass tonality for their size and are often available at discount. I have an older pair of the 751s I just love.

I don't know - I'll have to look. Thanks for the rec!

Troy D · March-31st-2003, 05:26 PM

Tanager,

I'd recommend adding PSB's Image 4t to your list of speaker candidates. I bought these without auditioning them, mainly due to an enthusiastic review in Stereophile, as well as PSB's all-around great reputation for budget speakers. I wasn't disappointed. Nice, well-balanced sound, and with plenty of tight bass, with a small footprint. I got a pair of B-stocks from Upscale Audio for $399--you could probably find other on-line merchants who would offer a similar deal. For that price, I don't think you can do any better.

You're in good shape going with the Cambridge Audio CD player--I've been using a D300 and am really happy with it. I'm sure the D500 would be even better.

Tanager · March-31st-2003, 06:43 PM

Again, thanks for the rec, Troy. And damned good to see you finally made your way over here.

Troy D · April-1st-2003, 07:51 AM

Thanks, man. It is good to be here, finally--I had to get acquainted to the new format, of course, and I'm a bit slow with these things. Plus it's been a very busy couple of weeks. But I really like the layout and feel of the new boards.

I'll look forward to hearing about how your new stereo rig is coming along...

Kevin Bresnahan · April-1st-2003, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tanager

For the CD, going CA again, this time the D500. Would consider the D300 if budget required it, since it also has a 24 bit DAC (and, per reviews and my personal listening tests, a pretty good one). But the D500 is my choice for now. Price is also about $400.

Given the title of this topic, I find this purchase to be the worst advice. If you are on a budget, you would find your money better spent on a player with SACD playback capability. It is, bar none, the cheapest way to go "audiophile" that I've come across in a long time.

BTW, I am not knocking Cambridge Audio here! Far from it... I just think you get a lot more audiophile "bang for the buck" from an SACD player. Of course, you could also get the best of everything by picking up a combo player that plays CDs, SACDs and DVD-Audio discs. Audiophile heaven!

Later,
Kevin

Troy D · April-1st-2003, 08:12 AM

Is SACD really the way to go? On one level, it would seem to make sense--get the format of the future, right? But it's not clear yet, to me anyway, that SACD has made enough progress to justify making a commitment to it, at least until far more titles are released.

There was a really illuminating editorial in the latest Stereophile on this issue--it essentially described the scene at the lastest CES, where all Sony could do was announce the upcoming release of 15 Dylan SACD discs, along with Dark Side of the Moon in surround sound. That's pretty neat, I guess, but is that enough to justify a commitment to the new format? Especially for us jazz types?

The author (Jon Iverson) concluded: "As currently configured and marketed, SACD is not about giving customers what they want; it's about pushing the corporate agenda onto customers."

Again, I can certainly understand why someone would go SACD--but as far as I'm concerned, the jury's still out. If I had $1000 to plunk down on a new player, I'd get a really nice conventional CD player, and pass on SACD.

Kevin Bresnahan · April-1st-2003, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Troy D
Is SACD really the way to go? On one level, it would seem to make sense--get the format of the future, right? But it's not clear yet, to me anyway, that SACD has made enough progress to justify making a commitment to it, at least until far more titles are released.

There was a really illuminating editorial in the latest Stereophile on this issue--it essentially described the scene at the lastest CES, where all Sony could do was announce the upcoming release of 15 Dylan SACD discs, along with Dark Side of the Moon in surround sound. That's pretty neat, I guess, but is that enough to justify a commitment to the new format? Especially for us jazz types?

The author (Jon Iverson) concluded: "As currently configured and marketed, SACD is not about giving customers what they want; it's about pushing the corporate agenda onto customers."

Again, I can certainly understand why someone would go SACD--but as far as I'm concerned, the jury's still out. If I had $1000 to plunk down on a new player, I'd get a really nice conventional CD player, and pass on SACD.

Troy, $1000?? No way. The Sony DVP-NS755V can be found in many places for under $200. That's "audiophile on a budget"!

Sure, the redbook CD playback is merely "OK" but it ain't that bad... not bad enough to toss it on the scrap heap. I would strongly suggest a listening test of this player before plunking down money on a "CD-only" player. It would be short-sighted at this point to not consider it. The SACD of Pink Floyd's "Dark Side of the Moon" is just mind-blowingly great.

As for the availability of titles, that is why I mentioned SACD before DVD-Audio. You see, as I mention, my player (Pioneer Elite DV-45A) plays both. Both sound much improved over redbook CD but there are hardly any Jazz discs available in DVD-Audio. There are 100's of Jazz sessions out on SACD with more coming. Blue Note, Concord & Time (via Audio Fidelity) all have great Jazz coming out on SACD this month.

As for Stereophile... mentioning this magazine in a thread with "budget" in it is a mistake in my opinion. They have consistently equated $$ with "better". They look at the audiophile world with "green colored glasses". I don't subscribe to that point of view. They also seem to hold grudges and I am not suprised to see that they have something against Sony... after all, Sony sells stuff cheap.

Later,
Kevin

Tanager · April-1st-2003, 09:56 AM

Kevin, AFAIK, that Sony player only has a 12-bit DAC - from my listening tests, that's not anywhere near good enough for conventional CDs, which form the major bulk of my collection, and I'm not going to budget for a good 24/96 outboard DAC. I did look at that box, but I'm not too keen on what is still a 1.0 technology purchase. In a couple of years, when things are cheaper and there are more SACD titles available, I'll probably go that route, but for now, it just isn't worth it to me.

I know that Stereophile often gets a little $$$-obsessed, but if it's a dollar-conscious positive review you're looking for, Goodsound loved the CA stuff (both the A500 and the D500). That's, for my $$$, the best budget audiophile review site out there.

Tanager · April-1st-2003, 10:03 AM

Let me also say: when the dust settles in two or three years, and we know whether DVD-audio or SACD will be the winner (early handicapping goes to SACD, but the early handicapping went to Beta, too), then I'll go back to make another purchase.

Troy D · April-1st-2003, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kevin Bresnahan
Troy, $1000?? No way. The Sony DVP-NS755V can be found in many places for under $200. That's "audiophile on a budget"! Sure, the redbook CD playback is merely "OK" but it ain't that bad... not bad enough to toss it on the scrap heap. I would strongly suggest a listening test of this player before plunking down money on a "CD-only" player. It would be short-sighted at this point to not consider it. The SACD of Pink Floyd's "Dark Side of the Moon" is just mind-blowingly great.

As for the availability of titles, that is why I mentioned SACD before DVD-Audio. You see, as I mention, my player (Pioneer Elite DV-45A) plays both. Both sound much improved over redbook CD but there are hardly any Jazz discs available in DVD-Audio. There are 100's of Jazz sessions out on SACD with more coming. Blue Note, Concord & Time (via Audio Fidelity) all have great Jazz coming out on SACD this month.

As for Stereophile... mentioning this magazine in a thread with "budget" in it is a mistake in my opinion. They have consistently equated $$ with "better". They look at the audiophile world with "green colored glasses". I don't subscribe to that point of view. They also seem to hold grudges and I am not suprised to see that they have something against Sony... after all, Sony sells stuff cheap.

Later,
Kevin

Kevin,

Yeah, when I mentioned a $1000 player, I did temporarily forget that we were dealing with a "budget" thread here--my bad. Although I can honestly say that were I to come into that kind of change, I'd still be reluctant to get an SACD player. Part of the reason is that although the number of titles (incl. jazz) is increasing, the cost of those titles still seems a bit prohibitive. In other words, I guess I'm waiting not only for more titles, but also for the prices to drop a bit further, before I take the SACD plunge.

As for Stereophile, I totally agree that they're operating on a $$$ = quality mindset, with some exceptions. Sam Tellig, in particular, often has recommendations that fairly realistic for those of us on a budget. Cambridge Audio's stuff is something he has praised--especially the D500. I can't recall his exact words, but it was something to the effect of "If you need a CD player to last you until the format wars are settled, this is all you need." I tend to avoid the megabucks reviews in the mag, and stick with the more modest equipment they work with. At least based on the PSB's I picked up, they've not done me wrong so far.

I agree with you Tanager--get the D500 now, and in a few years, once SACD has "won," and the prices of discs has come way down, it will make more sense to switch over. In the meantime you'll have much better than "OK" redbook reproduction. I'm sure that the Dark Side of the Moon on SACD is mind-blowing--but is having even a few dozen SACD titles going to lead me to sacrifice the quality of the 100s of other ones I like to listen to most often?

Kevin Bresnahan · April-1st-2003, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tanager
Kevin, AFAIK, that Sony player only has a 12-bit DAC - from my listening tests, that's not anywhere near good enough for conventional CDs, which form the major bulk of my collection, and I'm not going to budget for a good 24/96 outboard DAC. I did look at that box, but I'm not too keen on what is still a 1.0 technology purchase. In a couple of years, when things are cheaper and there are more SACD titles available, I'll probably go that route, but for now, it just isn't worth it to me.

I'm gonna have to bail on this thread. Some of these comments just sound loony to me... almost like too much "reading" about the stuff and not enough "listening". "Looking" at the DVP-NS755V is not the same as getting it into your house and using it for a while (as I did). It is a perfectly fine CD player.

I seriously hope that anyone making an audio decision does so by utilizing blind listening tests wherever possible. I have little doubt that anyone comparing an SACD of "Kind Of Blue" to the CD version will notice an improvement. However, I seriously doubt that anyone, with any accuracy, could differentiate between DACs when comparing many of today's CD players... at least not when the blindfold is on.

A 12bit 108MHz Noise Shaped DAC being equated with "1.0 technology"?? That's the craziest thing I'm reading. I owned 1.0 technology... this is not what it sounded like. Far, far from it. We're talking about a CD player with 2003 technology compared to a CD player with 1982 technology... at least that's what I consider 1.0 technology for CD players. But maybe I'm an old fart. My first player was a 44.1 kHz sampled, brick-wall analog filtered DAC. Now that was 1.0 technology.

I think you guys would really appreciate SACD. You wouldn't be hurting yourself by getting a higher-end SACD/CD combo and the benefits far outweigh the perceived disadvantages.

Later,
Kevin

Tanager · April-1st-2003, 01:32 PM

What can I say, Kevin? I've listened to a LOT of CD players, and I *do* think I can tell the difference between a 12-bit DAC and one with twice the bitdepth. That's by no means a small leap. This isn't purely reading, I have auditioned *LOTS* of players. Until I own a lot of SACD disks, why buy the player? I want something that will give me stellar sound with the many hundreds of CDs I currently own, not something that will sound great when I've replaced most of them, but not before then.

And yes, I think SACD is a 1.0 technology at this stage. It's been commonly available on the commercial market for how long? I *might* give you 1.1, maybe 1.2...no more.

But hey, if you like your player, more power to you. I am 100% sure it's not the right purchase for me.

Kevin Bresnahan · April-1st-2003, 02:29 PM

Audiophile on a low budget:

2 channel receiver
Harman Kardon HK 3370-Z Price: $147 (refurb)
Refurb unit link
Note that this receiver has a phono input. Add on an inexpensive turntable when the budget allows and start browsing those used LP bins.

CD/SACD/DVD/mp3 Combo player
Sony DVP-NS755V Price: $225
Good Deal Link . Note that buying this from Music Direct gets you 10% off all SACD purchases for a year. A nice bonus.

Speakers
Cambridge SoundWorks Tower II Price: $420 ('B' Goods)
Ebay Link (Direct from Cambridge Sound Works at hifi.com)
These speakers are a great bargain. They fill the room with sound and have a balance that favors Jazz instrumentation. To my ears, piano is particularly well reproduced. According to steve(thelil), if you bid $400 on ebay, you will best the reserve and save $20.

Of course, speakers are the one component of any system that is very personal. Others may find a better sounding set of speakers for less money. I haven't had any complaints from people who have bought these Cambridge SoundWorks speakers on my advice.

Later,
Kevin

Tanager · April-1st-2003, 04:28 PM

Kevin, I didn't mean to come off as aggressive as I did. I do know that mere specs don't tell the whole story, and bitdepth is not the only measure of reproductive quality.

I'll check out the speakers if I can find a dealer around here.

Kevin Bresnahan · April-1st-2003, 04:49 PM

Tanager, don't worry about it. Believe me, I have had much more intense discussions over audio in my day. As I've grown older, I've come to realize that audio is like politics... there's always someone out there who'll disagree with you and neither of you will be 100% right.

Anyway, as far as I know, Cambridge SoundWorks doesn't have any outlet stores in your area. They do offer a money back guarantee if you order them and don't like them. Buy them and try them for 45 days. If you don't like them, send 'em back. As I said, I've recommended these speakers to many people without anyone bringing them back. Their web page ishttp://www.hifi.com .

As long as you stay away from mentioning Stereophile, we should be OK.

BTW, if shrugs does check in here someday, he's gonna be all over you to get a turntable!

Later,
Kevin

Tanager · April-1st-2003, 05:11 PM

Believe it or not...I actually have an old Onkyo platter boxed up in the attic. I haven't used it in about four years, and my two boxes of vinyl (maybe 100 lps total) got largely trashed when we moved. That sucked. But I still have the turntable (it's not a particularly great one, but last I checked, it worked fine - but the stylus looks like a blunt pencil point at this stage). I don't even know what kind of cartridge the damned thing takes.

Chazro · April-1st-2003, 06:01 PM

Wazzup Fellas!

There's debate going on about buying gear via the internet vs. going to the Audio Salon. I've been into this for over 20 years and while I hold a special place in my heart for the Salon the theme here is about a budget. Not only would I buy via the net as you should always be able to find what you want for cheaper but I would take it to the next level and that's to buy USED on the net either through EBAY or Audiogon. I guess it's a question of preference. I chose to buy a used Infiniti instead of getting a new Honda/Toyota, By doing a little homework and playing it smart I've always gotten big bang for my bucks! Just last week I recieved my 1st Tube Amp and it has absolutely transformed my system. This unit cost close to $3000 new and with the upgrades and tubes the dude put into it the price was closer to $4000. I got it for a grand. A grand is a nice chunka change but I scrimped and didn't pay a few bills and was able to pick it up. I never would've been able to buy this unit new. I've bought my last 2 CD players, a DAC, a 35" Sony, a Grado Sonata cartridge, a shelf unit for my turntable, a Monster Power Center, a portable CD player, and my JVC kaboom box all from Ebay over the last couple of years. I've literally saved thousands of dollars and highly recommend it to anybody, regardless of budget. Hell, if you're heart's set on a Cambridge Audio CD player I've got a CD4 in perfect condition sitting in my closet, a great player, I'll let you have it for $100 bucks, e-mail me if you're interested!

Tanager · April-1st-2003, 06:38 PM

Personally speaking (and nothing against you personally, Chazro), but I am leery of buying anything used which has sensitive moving parts (CD drives and the like being among those). My fear is probably ill-founded, but I like to know there's a warranty and someone I can yell at if things don't work. The only used component I ever bought was a Nak deck, but I know a little bit (not a lot, but a little) about Nak decks, and I knew what questions to ask to feel comfortable that I'm getting what I want. With amps, I might be willing at some point to buy a used unit, but probably not much else.

That's just my personal prejudice, however, and I'm sure others have gotten great deals buying used and from auction sites, etc.

Kevin Bresnahan · April-2nd-2003, 08:22 AM

I have bought many pieces of used gear in my day. I have no problem with used electronics, including CD players. There's not a lot of wear & tear on the mechanicals in a CD player (open/close/play). However, I have drawn the line at buying used speakers. I still don't trust used speakers... a strange quirk of mine. They may be perfectly fine but I have this mental block against them. Of course, given that my current speaker fantasy is a B&W home theater set-up, I may have to go used... no way I can afford those things new. I bet the full set (even with smaller L & R mains) would run me close to $2.5K.

Later,
Kevin

Troy D · April-2nd-2003, 08:44 AM

The one time I did buy a used item was a CD player--it worked great for the first few months, and wouldn't you know, just after the warranty expired (the former owner was good enough to send it with the player), it gave up the ghost. It began skipping horribly on every CD, and no one I took it to could fix it.

I don't think I'd hesitate to buy a used amp or speakers, if the price was right and the owner seemed trustworthy. But I'd definitely think twice before getting another used CD player.

Tanager · April-2nd-2003, 08:50 AM

Yeah, I think a lot of buying used is just personal comfort level - there are certainly good folks out there who are honest sellers, to be sure. I'm just leery. If I'm going to spend a lot of $$$ on something (and this system is a lot of $$$ for me, but thank God my wife is better to me than I deserve and is letting me get it

), I really need a level of assurance on the condition of the equipment.

Speakers...probably not. They *are*, after all, perhaps the most mechanical device in the signal chain, and...well, it's just me, what can I say?

Again, this is really just personal touchy-feely stuff, and not any attempt to impugn buying used equipment in general.

Chazro · April-2nd-2003, 09:02 AM

Wazzup Fellas!

I understand about feeling more secure buying new equipment, when it comes to this hobby most of us follow our 'gut' feelings, which may or may not be a good thing! Anyhow, one last point about the used market, on EBAY and Audiogon there's tons of new equipment and dealer demos available. Just a word to the wise!!

Tanager · April-3rd-2003, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Troy D
I'll look forward to hearing about how your new stereo rig is coming along...

The CA cd and amp just showed up...now listening...sorry, "burning in" (must use the correct audiophile lingo

). Loving it. Listening to Dizzy blow the shit out of a trumpet as we speak.

While we're on the subject, is it just me, or are stereo sales droids almost the equal of car droids in sleaze factor. I mail ordered the stuff in the end, b/c I was just freakin' tired of dealing with pushy gimps who kept trying to get me to overspend.

Troy D · April-3rd-2003, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tanager
The CA cd and amp just showed up...now listening...sorry, "burning in" (must use the correct audiophile lingo ). Loving it. Listening to Dizzy blow the shit out of a trumpet as we speak.

While we're on the subject, is it just me, or are stereo sales droids almost the equal of car droids in sleaze factor. I mail ordered the stuff in the end, b/c I was just freakin' tired of dealing with pushy gimps who kept trying to get me to overspend.

Glad to hear it's all coming together.

I can't speak personally to the stereo salesperson sleaze issue--I've always gone with on-line purchases, buying stuff without auditioning it. One main reason for this (in addition to saving money): I've got a very compulsive kind of personality. If I were to go in and start auditioning equipment, they'd never get me out of the store! And I'd lose my mind second-guessing myself continuously. So I essentially read a ton of reviews, and take it from there. The other benefit, of course, is that I never have to deal with sleazy salespeople. Sorry to hear you got hassled--why they would work so hard to turn you away is baffling to me. Don't these guys know how to run a business??!