Masada 50th Birthday Bar Kokhba

[baksheesh]

Just started listening to the 3 Disc Bar Kokhba set. Wondering what others make of the music. It sounds pretty good so far, i'm wondering why the Penguin JE gave it a bad rep.
In fact i'm wondering what the general opinion is on Masada in general, or is that better suited to the Reviews section? If so i'll get it moved instanter.

[David Gitin]

When I saw this group a couple of months ago in San Francisco, they exceeded my expectations (based on their CDs). The set you're asking about is a good one, triple disc, space for them to stretch out.

[gonzo]

kind of like if ornette coleman was a hasid. i really like them. dave douglas is outstanding in this band.

[baksheesh]

Originally Posted by David Gitin

When I saw this group a couple of months ago in San Francisco, they exceeded my expectations (based on their CDs). The set you're asking about is a good one, triple disc, space for them to stretch out.

Dave, i have to ask you - is there anyone you HAVEN'T seen?
I have all the first Masadas - 1 - 10, including that elusive Dalet (four), and i think they constitute a marvellously consistent body of work. A slight quibble might be that because of the tonality (what would you call it - Hebraic? Yiddish?) there's a somewhat limited range if you're just using the same instrumental line up. I rate the first three very highly indeed.

[David Gitin]

Actually, I was speaking about the Bar Kokhba Sextet (heard recently), but I have heard Masada a few times over the years, and Electric Masada (at Victoriaville, Quebec). The possibilities of the instruments (varied instrumentation performing Zorn's works on so many discs) isn't a limitation for me, but the tunes themselves sometimes are... Hearing Zorn's 'Cobra' was more thrilling (for me).

[baksheesh]

Checked Cobra out, looks intriguing! Which of the following (source: Wikipedia) would you recommend?

* Cobra (1987)- includes a large table of the cues in color.
* John Zorn's Cobra: Live at the Knitting Factory (1992)
* John Zorn's Cobra: Tokyo Operations '94 (1994)
* Cobra: John Zorn's Game Pieces Volume 2 (2002) — includes a copy of the cues

[David Gitin]

They're all different; it's the nature of the score that permits such variety. If you're open to different ways to organize music and encourage improv, you might get into it.

[baksheesh]

Originally Posted by David Gitin

They're all different; it's the nature of the score that permits such variety. If you're open to different ways to organize music and encourage improv, you might get into it.

Absolutely! And i expect i shall enjoy it. Shall i take you to be saying that the recordings listed above are all worth checking out?
There was/is a fellow named Andreas Vollenweider, quasi-New Age, but made some good music, who cued his ensembles with visuals only - colours and images principally. He had a couple of great albums in the 80s - Down to the Moon, and The White Winds.

[David Gitin]

'Tokyo' sound quality is not the best... but otherwise the more versions you check out, the more you're likely to appreciate the work.

BTW Butch Morris is a 'possible' comparison ('conduction' being a more spontaneous method of eliciting the music), but I don't recall Vollenweider doing anything like this.

[baksheesh]

Thanks for the heads up Dave! Sorry, i didn't mean to give the impression that Vollenweider conducted any free improv pieces - he's very much a composer and sticking to the music in a conventional fasion - more that i thought it was an interesting way of telling an ensemble what you want, and giving them more leeway to interpret the material. I'll get back to you once i've a) acquired one of the Cobra recordings and b) had a thoughtful listen or two

[clarke68]

I used to own the HatHut Cobra. I happen to agree completely with Brian Olewnick's assessment of it on Allmusic.com:

John Zorn's Cobra game piece has enjoyed quite a life of its own since this, its original recording, from 1985-1986. Zorn developed several similar pieces, but Cobra would see renditions by various ensembles with varying instrumentation, with the composer at the helm and without, and would become something of a staple for undergraduate musicians exploring improvisational strategies. One of the central sources for the conception behind this piece, oddly enough, was the Avalon Hill game company, which created strategic simulation games involving arcane sets of rules, dice rolls, etc., in an effort to approximate, for example, war planning and theory. Zorn, a games aficionado with an affinity for elastic rules systems, developed a unique, expansive, and highly flexible series of prompts and rules, taught and distributed them to many of the downtown New York City musicians of the early '80s, and staged numerous highly entertaining performances of the ensuing "conflicts." At such an event, inevitably more viscerally enjoyable than a recording of same, Zorn would hold up cards with symbols, usually choosing certain small combinations of players. These symbols could instruct, among many other things, that the musicians improvise in a certain style (surf guitar, free noise, punk, etc.) and/or could delimit the duration, volume, and so on. He would thus spontaneously organize a composition that, for all its apparent anarchy, was actually following a relatively strict set of assumptions. The kicker was that the players could counteract his commands, forming ad hoc blocs, cooperate or betray said blocs, form alliances "against" other players, etc. As an audience member, one saw a wonderful display of real-time politics combined with art creation, and the result was often spectacular. Unfortunately, an enormous amount is sacrificed when Cobra is encountered as only an aural document (here, one live session and one in the studio). The kernels of collective sound tend to appear arbitrary, any strategic rationale necessarily going unseen. Listened to at home, one hears a series of sonic postcards, enjoyable or otherwise on their own but bearing little obvious relationship to what came before or after. One can certainly appreciate the music in just that manner, as a random, Cage-ian series of musical fragments, but one is left with the nagging (and correct) sense of something crucial being missed. As a document in Zorn's career, Cobra is essential. As a purely musical experience, it is, quite unfortunately, less so.

Zorn does conducted improvisations on other recordings as well ("Hath-Arob", for example, is on a few different Masada/Electric Masada albums), so you might try checking those out before sourcing one of the Cobra discs, most (if not all) of which appear to be out of print.

Back on topic, I love the 50th Birthday Bar Kokhba...it's far and away my favorite of the group's three (?) recordings.