Robert McNamara, RIP

[jesus marion joseph]

One complex carbohydrate.


Robert S. McNamara, defense secretary during Vietnam, dies
By Associated Press | Monday, July 6, 2009 | http://www.bostonherald.com | Around the Nation
Photo
Photo by AP (File)

WASHINGTON — Robert S. McNamara, the cerebral secretary of defense who was vilified for prosecuting America’s most controversial war and then devoted himself to helping the world’s poorest nations, died Monday. He was 93.

McNamara died at 5:30 a.m. at his home, his wife Diana told The Associated Press. She said he had been in failing health for some time.

For all his healing efforts, McNamara was fundamentally associated with the Vietnam War, "McNamara’s war," the country’s most disastrous foreign venture, the only American war to end in abject withdrawal rather than victory.

Known as a policymaker with a fixation for statistical analysis, McNamara was recruited to run the Pentagon by President John F. Kennedy in 1961 from the presidency of the Ford Motor Co. He stayed seven years, longer than anyone since the job’s creation in 1947.

His association with Vietnam became intensely personal. Even his son, as a Stanford University student, protested against the war while his father was running it. At Harvard, McNamara once had to flee a student mob through underground utility tunnels. Critics mocked McNamara mercilessly; they made much of the fact that his middle name was "Strange."

After leaving the Pentagon on the verge of a nervous breakdown, McNamara became president of the World Bank and devoted evangelical energies to the belief that improving life in rural communities in developing countries was a more promising path to peace than the buildup of arms and armies.

A private person, McNamara for many years declined to write his memoirs, to lay out his view of the war and his side in his quarrels with his generals. In the early 1990s he began to open up. He told Time magazine in 1991 that he did not think the bombing of North Vietnam — the greatest bombing campaign in history up to that time — would work but he went along with it "because we had to try to prove it would not work, number one, and (because) other people thought it would work."

Finally, in 1993, after the Cold War ended, he undertook to write his memoirs because some of the lessons of Vietnam were applicable to the post-Cold War period "odd as though it may seem."

[clinthopson]

Too bad that Shrub, et al didn't learn.

And it doesn't look like the lesson has completely sunk in to Barack.

[Chazro]

The documentary on his life & times, 'The Fog Of War', was fascinating. By the end I was feeling sympathetic towards him. Love him or hate him, the movie stands as an important historical document, highly recommended.

RIP

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by Chazro

By the end I was feeling sympathetic towards him.

You're either a better man than I or a more gullible one.

[Gary Sisco]

I hope I get to piss on his grave.

[Pete C]

Maybe we could sponsor a JC pissing contest.

[Pete C]

"McNamara's trademarks were his rimless glasses and slicked down hair and his reliance on quantitative analysis to reach conclusions, calmly promulgated in a husky voice."

[baksheesh]

The Fog of War was great, and it was strangely moving to see this old man, moved almost to tears as he expresses regret for all the civilians roasted in raids in WWII, and pointed out that the Allies would probably have been tried for war crimes if they lost (a moot point tho').
The point is the man had the courage to regret profoundly and to act on it - how rare it is to find that quality in politicians of any stripe!
Although it far from redeems his life at least his actions constitute some form of redress.

[Pete C]

Kind of self serving to confess your mistakes while acting like a sage.

[baksheesh]

Hmmmm... Better to admit one's fault than to continue justifying reprehensible actions, and i'm sure the manner of sagacity is a habit that's hard to kick after a lifetime of advising the high and mighty.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by baksheesh

Better to admit one's fault than to continue justifying reprehensible actions,

Keeping your mouth shut is a third option.

[baksheesh]

Hmmm... C'est possible...
At least he did some good towards the end, and in order to do that in this topsy turvy world you do have do spout copious amounts of bullshit.

[Gary Sisco]

He didn't, actually. What he did was rationalize his mistakes, claiming that he made decisions based on faulty intelligence. Which we know he didn't, if only from the Pentagon Papers (not to mention press and military at the scene like John Paul Vann, David Hackworth and many others), which he himself ordered and classified.

His logic was strictly quantitative. If more Vietnamese were being killed than Americans, the US was winning. Period.

Wrong. Absolutely wrong. By that logic, Germany beat the shit out of the Russians in WW2.



And he steadfastly refused to deal with any view, no matter how experienced or knowlegable, that did not correspond with his.

Three million dead.

If I thought there were a Hell, I'd be hoping his ass is frying for all eternity.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by Gary Sisco

If I thought there were a Hell, I'd be hoping his ass is frying for all eternity.

Hit it, boys!

(Don't Worry) If There's A Hell Below We're All Gonna Go

Sisters, Brothers And The Whities
Blacks And The Crackers
Police And Their Backers
They're All Political Actors
Hurry, People Running From Their Worries
While The Judge And His Juries
Dictate The Law That's Partly Flaw.
Cat Calling Love Balling Fussing And Cussing

Top Billing Now Is Killing
For Peace No One Is Willing
Kind Of Make You Get That Feeling
Everybody Smoke
Use The Pill And The Dope
Educated Fools
From-Uneducated Schools
Pimping People Is The Rule
Polluted Water In The Pool
And Nixon Talking About Don't Worry
He Says Don't Worry
He Says Don't Worry
He Says Don't Worry
But They Don't Know There Can Be No Show
And If There's A Hell Below We're All Gonna Go
Everybody's Praying And Everybody's Saying
But When Come Time To Do
Everybody's Laying
Just Talking About Don't Worry
They Say Don't Worry
They Say Don't Worry
They Say Don't Worry
Sisters, Brothers And The Whitie
Blacks And The Crackers
Stone Stone Junkie
Police And Their Backers
They're All Political Actors
Smoke, The Pill And The Dope,
Educated Fools From Uneducated Schools,
Pimping People Is The Rule
Polluted Water In The Pool
And Everybody's Saying Don't Worry
They Say Don't Worry
They Say Don't Worry
They Say Don't Worry
But They Don't Know
There Can Be No Show
If There's A Hell Below
We're All Gonna Go

Lord What We Gonna Do
If Everything I Say Is True
This Ain't No Way It Ought To Be
1f Only All The Mass Could See
But Everybody Keeps Saying Don't Worry

[baksheesh]

Originally Posted by Gary Sisco

He didn't, actually. What he did was rationalize his mistakes, claiming that he made decisions based on faulty intelligence. Which we know he didn't, if only from the Pentagon Papers (not to mention press and military at the scene like John Paul Vann, David Hackworth and many others), which he himself ordered and classified.

His logic was strictly quantitative. If more Vietnamese were being killed than Americans, the US was winning. Period.

Wrong. Absolutely wrong. By that logic, Germany beat the shit out of the Russians in WW2.



And he steadfastly refused to deal with any view, no matter how experienced or knowlegable, that did not correspond with his.

Three million dead.

If I thought there were a Hell, I'd be hoping his ass is frying for all eternity.

I agree absolutely m'man! My point is that at least he had regrets and tried to do some good. 'Tis true there is little sadder than the bootless regret of an old man...

[Gary Sisco]

If you want to learn how they dealt with contrary views from within the military, from people in combat leadership positions, read *The Bright Shining Lie* and Col. Hackworth's *About Face.* It's incredible how dense and stupid the Pentagon hierarchy and high brass in Vietnam were. Those will get you started, anyway. They dealt with contrary views by ignoring them altogether if possible and by getting rid of the contrarian if not -- including excellent, proven combat officers like Vann and Hack and many others.

[Gary Sisco]

Originally Posted by baksheesh

I agree absolutely m'man! My point is that at least he had regrets and tried to do some good. 'Tis true there is little sadder than the bootless regret of an old man...

I'm not going to judge war criminals by their relative degree of criminality. Or regret, real or phony.

He had the same intelligence and information as anyone else at the time. His decisionmaking was murderously simpleminded and mechanistic, and determinedly so.

If he turned a blind eye to views that didn't confirm his own, he did so willingly because there was no lack of them.

[baksheesh]

Sounds pretty interesting - I'll try and track them down. Have always been aware that military intelligence is an oxymoron though.

[Gary Sisco]

Yeah, well. Cliches aren't a substitute for knowledge and they're often wrong as well.

There are millions of people who have deeper regrets than he over his decisions.

[baksheesh]

Undoubtedly so! Just comparing him to all the utter d***ks who have no regrets about their evil actions.

[Gary Sisco]

A genuinely tragic personality was John Paul Vann. A contrarian from the start as an advisor, and one who had more personal experience than anyone in Washington, military or civilian, to the point of being shitcanned and losing his Army career, he ended up back in Vietnam where he became the only civilian general of combat forces in American history -- fighting the same war he knew couldn't possibly be won fighting it the way it was being fought, and in fact, by then, he knew it was already long lost. And died for his trouble in a chopper crash.

[Gary Sisco]

If there was an American in power who I think really did come to understand just how wrong he was, and who was genuinely humbled by it, it would be LBJ.

The great tragedy of the war is that LBJ could have withdrawn American forces from the war during his presidency under virtually the same terms as were later accepted by Nixon-Kissinger. Instead, millions of lives were lost and millions more destroyed for no military or political gain or difference in outcome. Incredible, murderous hubris.

Which is still very much alive and in effect today. More tragedy still.

[baksheesh]

Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose...

[Gordon B]

Originally Posted by baksheesh

I agree absolutely m'man! My point is that at least he had regrets and tried to do some good. 'Tis true there is little sadder than the bootless regret of an old man...

I thought you meant he did actual good by fighting world poverty and helping reduce river blindness as head of the World Bank for 15 years.

Here's George McGovern on Robert McNamara

[Gordon B]

Originally Posted by baksheesh

Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose...

The "domino theory" was pretty much the mainstream position of the Democratic Party in the 1960's. I think there's been a rather large change since then.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by Gordon B

I think there's been a rather large change since then.

World events may have had something to do with that.

[Gordon B]

Originally Posted by Pete C

World events may have had something to do with that.

Yes, the domino theory turned out to be wrong. Most of the countries in Asia did not turn communist after the anti-communist side lost in Vietnam and Cambodia.

[Ron Thorne]

His middle name wasn't Strange for nothing.

[lonely-at-the-top]

I recommend a can of Agent Orange to be among his grave goods

[groover]

Originally Posted by Gordon B

Yes, the domino theory turned out to be wrong. Most of the countries in Asia did not turn communist after the anti-communist side lost in Vietnam and Cambodia.

I wrote a term paper arguing this in my senior year of high school (1976), and got an A from my history professor, whose name was coincidentally Yasgur and played guitar.

I submitted a revised draft to my International Politics professor in my freshman year of college, Dr. Kim, a Korean who I eventually realized was a staunch anti-communist. He told me I needed to include more sources. I did, but he still gave the final paper a C.

McNamara did wrote some thoughtful essays on nuclear deterrence strategies, though, that were in the textbook for that class. Whether or not you agree with his policies and conclusions, he was an intelligent man.

In McNamara's formulation, MAD meant that nuclear nations either had first strike or second strike capability. A nation with first strike capability would be able to destroy the entire nuclear arsenal of another nation and thus prevent any nuclear retaliation. Second strike capability indicated that a nation could uphold a promise to respond to a nuclear attack with enough force to make such a first attack highly undesirable. According to McNamara, the arms race was in part an attempt to make sure that no nation gained first strike capability.