Mingus and Trumpeters

[Pete C]

Mingus almost always hired great saxophonists, but his trumpeters were a mixed bag. I have a video with the forgettable Joe Gardner, and Ronald Hampton, who appears on Moves, was dreadful (I saw him live with Mingus once), and Lonnie Hillyer was pretty mediocre too. But there were also good trumpeters like Richard Williams, Jon Faddis, Gene Shaw, Curson, Coles and a few others. Any ideas on why Mingus accepted substandard trumpeters--I can't think of any saxophonists in his bands who one could write off completely.

[John L]

That is an interesting question, Pete.

It would seem that Mingus usually had top trumpet players in his bands in the 50s through the mid-60s, but sometimes had weaker trumpet players in subsequent years. Maybe it became more difficult to find top trumpet players who would dedicate themselves completely to his difficult music, and also take on the chin what Mingus would often dish out. After Coltrane, the ratio of top saxophone to top trumpet players seemed to increase significantly. No?

It is also interesting that it took Mingus some time to hire a trumpet player (Jack Walrath) for his last his last great band in the 70s.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by John L

Maybe it became more difficult to find top trumpet players who would dedicate themselves completely to his difficult music, and also take on the chin what Mingus would often dish out.

Mingus always had 1 or two saxophonists in his band, and used trumpeters intermittently and sometimes, especially earlier, trombonists instead.

Walrath is OK, but I don't think he was anywhere near the equivalent of George Adams or Ricky Ford.

I think Woody Shaw appears on that album that Lionel Hampton produced and Paul Jeffrey arranged. Imagine a regular Mingus band with Shaw.

I guess another question is, who were the younger trumpeters coming up after Shaw & Tolliver but before Marsalis, Blanchard, etc. In the 70s Blakey used a Russian (Ponamarev), a Japanese (Ohno) and a veteran (Hardman)--who else? There was Faddis, who did play with Mingus as a teenager, and Cecil Bridgewater was tied up with Roach...

[Tom Storer]

I've long fantasized about what Mingus's influence might have been on jazz in the 1980's and beyond if he had been alive and healthy. Players like the Marsalises might well have ended up in his band, not to mention David Murray, Arthur Blythe, goodness know who else from both the straight-ahead and free-leaning sides of the spectrum. Imagine if Wynton Marsalis had started his career with several years as a Mingus sideman instead of being instantly made a star and chef de file.

[MRS]

I read that he wrote "Number 29" specifically to piss off trumpeters.

[groover]

Originally Posted by John L

Maybe it became more difficult to find top trumpet players who would dedicate themselves completely to his difficult music, and also take on the chin what Mingus would often dish out.

Trombonists had the most reason to fear Mingus, though, after the Knepper incident. McLean proved saxophonists could hold their own with him.

While on stage at a memorial concert he apparently attempted to crush his pianist's hands, then punched trombonist Jimmy Knepper in the mouth. Jackie McLean once stabbed Mingus after Mingus punched him, fearing that Mingus was about to kill him.

[CraigP]

Originally Posted by Pete C

I guess another question is, who were the younger trumpeters coming up after Shaw & Tolliver but before Marsalis, Blanchard, etc. In the 70s Blakey used a Russian (Ponamarev), a Japanese (Ohno) and a veteran (Hardman)--who else? There was Faddis, who did play with Mingus as a teenager, and Cecil Bridgewater was tied up with Roach...

Hmm...you stumped me. I don't think there really was anybody between Shaw/Tolliver and Marsalis etc., at least in the mainstream arena. I do know that the 70's saw the rise of the AACM (Lester Bowie) and the BAG (Baikida Carroll).

[baksheesh]

Maybe the trumpet just wasn't suited to the sound Mingus wanted

[Tom Marcello]

Originally Posted by CraigP

Hmm...you stumped me. I don't think there really was anybody between Shaw/Tolliver and Marsalis etc., at least in the mainstream arena. I do know that the 70's saw the rise of the AACM (Lester Bowie) and the BAG (Baikida Carroll).

Off the top of my head, Tom Harrell comes to mind...

Which reminds me that I have a nice the of the Tom Harrell / Sam Jones Big Band somewhere.

[Bill Barton]

Originally Posted by Pete C

Mingus always had 1 or two saxophonists in his band, and used trumpeters intermittently and sometimes, especially earlier, trombonists instead.

Walrath is OK, but I don't think he was anywhere near the equivalent of George Adams or Ricky Ford.

I think Woody Shaw appears on that album that Lionel Hampton produced and Paul Jeffrey arranged. Imagine a regular Mingus band with Shaw.

I guess another question is, who were the younger trumpeters coming up after Shaw & Tolliver but before Marsalis, Blanchard, etc. In the 70s Blakey used a Russian (Ponamarev), a Japanese (Ohno) and a veteran (Hardman)--who else? There was Faddis, who did play with Mingus as a teenager, and Cecil Bridgewater was tied up with Roach...

I have to respectfully disagree regarding Walrath. He's way more than "OK" to my ears, both with Mingus (live and on recordings) and on his own projects.

This is a very thought-provoking thread. Thanks, Pete! I'm having trouble coming up with any names other than Tom Harrell, as Tom Marcello pointed out, who recorded his first album as a leader in 1976, in response to the question above. At first I was thinking of Tim Hagans, but then realized that he came on the scene a bit later.

[baksheesh]

I would like to reiterate my point - Perhaps Mingus just wasn't that keen on the trumpet

[John L]

Originally Posted by Pete C

Imagine a regular Mingus band with Shaw.

A scary prospect. With Mingus and Shaw together, one of them would have probably died, and the other one put away for murder.

[clinthopson]

This is very interesting. Up until now, I never thought about Mingus' lack of top trumpeters. He used a lot of trumpeters and I suppose his primary use of them was as leads in large ensembles.

Certainly he made good use of saxes and pianos but I can't recall any solos by trumpeters which were that memorable.

Even the current Mingus Big Band doesn't seem to feature a lot of trumpet solos, although they have some pretty good players these days.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by clinthopson

I can't recall any solos by trumpeters which were that memorable.

Coles played beautifully before he got sick on the European tour. I like Curson on the Candid and Antibes dates. Richard Williams has some wonderful moments on Mingus Dynasty.

[John L]

There was also Clarence Shaw, who Mingus adored.

[clinthopson]

Richard Williams was a terrific player, I loved his work with Thad Jones and Mel Lewis.

[Pete C]

I don't know much about Eddie Preston. He was OK on those America dates. Was he ever with Ellington?

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by Pete C

Was he ever with Ellington?

Yes, Pete, two stints with the Ellington band.

[relyles]

I believe Marvin "Hannibal" Peterson started playing in the seventies. I always thought he was interesting and could see him in the band with George Adams and Don Pullen.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by relyles

I believe Marvin "Hannibal" Peterson started playing in the seventies. I always thought he was interesting and could see him in the band with George Adams and Don Pullen.

Maybe Charles Sullivan, too, who played with Sonny Fortune then disappeared into thin air.

[Tom Marcello]

I was going to mention Hannibal and Charles Sullivan.

Here's a photo of mine of Hannibal:


Hannibal Marvin Peterson is still around but has a different name now. I'm not sure where he lives.
IIRC, I recently saw a listing of Charles Sullivan playing in NYC somewhere...

We can also mention Eddie Henderson.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by Tom Marcello

Hannibal Marvin Peterson is still around but has a different name now. I'm not sure where he lives.

http://www.austin360.com/music/conte...econdline.html

[CraigP]

That's crazy that Marvin is in Texas now!

[relyles]

Eddie Henderson is the right time frame, but I do not think he would fit stylistically with Mingus' music of the times.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by relyles

Eddie Henderson is the right time frame, but I do not think he would fit stylistically with Mingus' music of the times.

Is that based on what he was playing in the 70s (electric-fusion stuff with Herbie and on his own), or on his trumpet style itself? I'm sure he'd have done fine with Mingus.

[relyles]

I am basing it primarily on what he was playing at the time. I have enjoyed hearing Henderson live many times, but I just never thought of him as having that raw edge that I associated with Pullen, Adams and Walrath with Mingus in the seventies. I could be wrong of course.

[Al in NYC]

The one trumpeter it seemed Mingus always praised was Thad Jones, who he played with and produced on Debut early in his career. It's interesting that, after Thad, Mingus rarely recorded with a trumpeter for several years, except for the very Thad-like Clarence (Gene) Shaw, who was also from the Detroit area (Mingus also had a couple of other Detroit trumpeters, Lonnie Hillyer and Marcus Belgrave, in his bands).

It seems clear though that Mingus, for whatever reason, preferred the sound of trombone in his small bands for quite some time, and used first Eddie Bert for a brief period, and then Jimmy Knepper for many years to fill that role. It isn't really until Ted Curson that Mingus features another trumpeter, and even though he seemed to like Curson's playing, and the playing of some of his later trumpeters like Coles and Walrath, it's nearly always the saxes that seem to get the long solos and big moments in Mingus' music.

[Pete C]

I have a feeling that Belgrave might have done more work with Mingus but preferred to stay in Detroit. Was Hobart Dotson also from Detroit?

[Al in NYC]

Back in the '50s and '60s Marcus was on the road with Ray Charles a lot, and of course he preferred the regular income stream of that work. Later on, by the time he appeared on Changes, he was pretty much settled in Detroit and was increasingly at the center of the jazz scene there.

Dotson was, I believe, from L.A. and may have known Mingus as a young man. I know that he was on a lot of early Gerald Wilson records recorded in L.A. just after the war, as well as some of the earliest recordings of Mingus and Dolphy (and reportedly turned Miles onto cocaine while traveling in the Eckstine band). But then Wilson had come to L.A. from Detroit just a few years earlier himself, so who knows.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by Al in NYC

Later on, by the time he appeared on Changes,

Do you mean Revisited?