Ted Gioia: Why Lester Young Matters

[Pete C]

http://www.jazz.com/jazz-blog/2009/8...-young-matters

[Paul B]

Nothing new there, but a nice piece nonetheless. I've been listening to Young more than just about anybody else for the past year, he left a remarkable body of work.

[LutherBlissett]

Originally Posted by Pete C

http://www.jazz.com/jazz-blog/2009/8...-young-matters

Dont like Ted Gioia conservative jazz historian, you will find another article by him on why Marsalis matters son

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by LutherBlissett

Dont like Ted Gioia conservative jazz historian, you will find another article by him on why Marsalis matters son

I don't think you give him enough credit. His early essays were some of the most thoughtful jazz writing I've read, including an excellent article on the myth of Ornette's "primitivism."

[John L]

I like Gioia's writing in general. This piece was OK, although I am not yet ready to accept the idea that Lester Young's sociological importance was as great as his musical importance. Maybe after I read Gioia's new book, I will change my mind.

[Pete C]

Gioia's M.O. is to try to deconstruct/reconstruct paradigms. With West Coast Jazz he was certainly successful.

[Tom Storer]

It comes out to twenty cents no matter how you look at it.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by Tom Storer

It comes out to twenty cents no matter how you look at it.

Yeah, yeah, and a proctologist and a psychiatrist are a paradox.

[clinthopson]

That blog reads like Gioia needed to grind something out in 15 minutes.

His premise that Prez had sociological influence is a bit of a stretch. Probably no one outside of the tiny portion of the populace that are jazz aficionados ever heard of him.

However, Gioia's book on West Coast jazz is the best treatment I've read of the music I misspent my youth with.

I am like Pete in my admiration for Prez. I also have been listening to a lot of his work lately and always find something new.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by clinthopson

That blog reads like Gioia needed to grind something out in 15 minutes.

His premise that Prez had sociological influence is a bit of a stretch. Probably no one outside of the tiny portion of the populace that are jazz aficionados ever heard of him.

I think his point is that Prez's style and language entered mainstream culture through jazz culture, whether or not directly through Prez. Though I wonder how much of the language was Prez and how much was Slim Gaillard.

[clinthopson]

O'Roonie

[Al in NYC]

Who says Lester doesn't matter?

[LutherBlissett]

Originally Posted by Al in NYC

Who says Lester doesn't matter?

Why does Lester Bowie matter ?

[Tom Storer]

Lester Young is celebrated today, on the 100th anniversary of his birth, by Ethan Iverson at Do the Math.

[PaintedPostDave]

Tom Storer, thanks for posting the link to EI's "Do the Math". I am off to NYC to try to attend Small's LY tribute this Friday. Will dig into EI's link on my return. Have studied Pres's early stuff for years. Still can't get over how original and unique he was.

[Tom Hall]

Can't even say how much I love this guy and his music.
My greatest influence, no matter how in or out I'm playing.

As a friend of mine said the other day, when we were talking about current trends in improvised jazz: "What we need is another Lester..."

[Tom Storer]

Iverson has some interesting things to say about that!

Originally Posted by Do the Math

just in case the right young people are reading this, I’d like to suggest that Lester Young might be gateway into making swing a resource for future creative music.

It’s dangerous to imitate most of the strong ones. If you play too much Charlie Parker, John Coltrane, Lennie Tristano, McCoy Tyner, Herbie Hancock, or Wayne Shorter in your conception you will immediately sound like their time and place, not like yourself.

But somehow I feel that Lester Young is still pilferable. Consider the raw elements of his style:

1) An incredibly charismatic tone.
2) An intensely swinging beat. If you took away the rhythm section track to any Young performance you could still dance to it. Indeed, Young preferred playing for dances rather than for concerts.
3) Total improvisation in a diatonic manner. No blues scales, no pentatonics, no bop scales or patterns - just the eight notes of the key plus a few well-chosen inflections and passing tones.

There’s room here, I just know it. Anyone up for the challenge? [...]

I’ve written here about how most musicians sound like their time and place. That’s just as it should be. But at his best, Lester Young doesn’t. He sounds both more ancient and more modern than we can know. He’s eternally refreshing and inspiring. Maybe his story is just beginning.

[CraigP]

Iverson's analysis includes a listing of his favorite "Master Takes." I know the material with Basie is collected on the Mosaic box set, but does anyone know where the other material can be found, or if the Basie stuff can be found on single discs?

[PaintedPostDave]

Had my first visit to Small's. Wonderful experience. Brad's band featured several tenorists and played some neat arrangements of Pres's early tunes, e.g., Tickle Toes. Couldn't stay for the second set - had to catch the Hudson line back to Beacon. IMHO, even with the tenorists blowing a tribute to Pres, no one really comes close to capturing (or channeling) Early Pres.

[Paul B]

I like Iverson's comments, they're more or less on the mark. Most young players these days seem to start their education with Coltrane and move on; in some cases, I've heard from teachers that young players user Brecker or even Chris Potter as starting points. Older players like Young aren't even on their radar. Which means that overall, tone and all the subtlety it can bring is sacrificed to what for the sake of simplicity we might call technique—or pyrotechics. The world sure doesn't need a roomful of Young copycats, but we could use more players who grasp his approach to tone, space, and simple, well-formed ideas and put them in a modern context.

[Mike Schwartz]

Originally Posted by Paul B

I like Iverson's comments, they're more or less on the mark. Most young players these days seem to start their education with Coltrane and move on; in some cases, I've heard from teachers that young players user Brecker or even Chris Potter as starting points. Older players like Young aren't even on their radar. Which means that overall, tone and all the subtlety it can bring is sacrificed to what for the sake of simplicity we might call technique—or pyrotechics. The world sure doesn't need a roomful of Young copycats, but we could use more players who grasp his approach to tone, space, and simple, well-formed ideas and put them in a modern context.

I'm not being argumentative here; that young players probably shouldn't be expected to know Lester or other players from that far back.

I say this after speaking with Matt Wilson who is in his 40's.
He led a quartet at Stanford this summer with a group that included 20 year old guitarist Julian Lage.

They rehearsed and played a tune Matt brough to the band from a 'lesser known' musician who had lots of input from 60's-80's (sorry can't remember the name), and wasn't someone who Lage knew. Matt's point was why should Lage know someone from a day before he was born? From the fact that they did that tune might be the point in time that the younger musician seeks out more after having this experience.

The same might be true if there were something contemporary that the 20 year old musician may bring to the older musician that he wouldn't have found otherwise; point being that another person/bandmate/teacher/found recording, or some enthusiastic recommendation could ultimately be the way these things are passed on....the continuation of the oral history of jazz.

[CraigP]

Mike, so you're saying young players shouldn't be expected to know about guys from before their formative years? Jazz is so much about knowing the tradition that I hope it doesn't come to that. For example, during my abortive attempt to play tenor in high school I knew about Lester and Don Byas and their links from Swing to Bop. I hope educators keep a place for the classics.

[Pete C]

I couldn't disagree with Mike more. It's like saying a rock musician shouldn't be expected to know Chuck Berry.

[Mike Schwartz]

Originally Posted by Pete C

I couldn't disagree with Mike more. It's like saying a rock musician shouldn't be expected to know Chuck Berry.

I dunno......are we to assume that many of todays rockers and head bangers etc. *know* Chuck Berry? Give me a break.....seriously, I think not.

Pete & CraigP,

2 things....I wish I could remember the name of the musician Wilson. I will say that it wasn't an icon type, so maybe it wasn't the best example.

If a new generation is expected to come along and carry the music forward, I don't think it's an absolute given or must that they need to have a handle on folks who have been dead 50 years or more. Why would/should a teenager know much about such folks? That said, it does seem apparent that the icons, Lester among them (sometimes) do become part of who is studied.

8-10 years ago I probably would have responded like you just did, but not any more.

[Steve Reynolds]

I would have been happier if the neo guys over the last 20 years knew about Lester, Papa Joe & Evan Parker


seems to me there has been a disconnect along the way

I'm sure Ellery Eskelin knew about all of them

I remember a few years back that one name tenor player who made a few records didn't even know about Ellery Eskelin....


one would be surprised how narrow the listening experience is with schooled players of the past 20 - 25 years who made records on criss cross, blue note, columbia and other labels


most of those records which, by the way, are now forgotten


because they never had their own voice....




Standing on a Whale Fishing for Minnows

[Tom Storer]

I think Mike's point is that young jazz musicians can't be expected to have an encyclopedic knowledge of jazz history yet, while they're still very young. That they should understand the importance of extending their knowledge of history, certainly. But hell, at age 21 you're too young to know everything. By age 30, serious musicians (same goes for fans) should know a lot more. But it's also true, not only for music, that, in a given time span, one has to sacrifice some broadness of knowledge in order to achieve depth of study. Julien Lage is 20 or 21. He's a fine player. He has time to learn about past players.

Remember also that an encyclopedic knowledge of jazz history in no way guarantees that a musician will make better music.

[John L]

That is quite a fine piece, or collection of pieces, by Iverson.

[CraigP]

I don't have any Bad Plus, because covering alt rock tunes seems like bad shtict. But Iverson's in-depth analysis of Young makes me want to give them a listen.