Clifford Brown--"Study in Brown"

[BlueMiles]

I find I'm really enjoying this CD. Long ago, when I was first got into jazz, I was a big fan of the Brown/Roach group. I, and many others, lamented the loss of Clifford Brown (though it happened well over a decade before I was born). Here was a trumpeter who technically superb (but rarely a show-off) and he also had the kind of lyrism we were hearing from Miles. Back in the day, Brownie vied with Miles as my favoritie trumpeter. Of course, Miles was able to walk the earth another 35 years and make tons of great and influential records.

But we should never forget how good Brown and Roach were in their brief heyday. Brown was a good composer. "Sandu" on this record is a greast hard bop line, on a par with Horace Silver's best. "George's Dilemma" is another good one, as is "Land's End" by Harold Land. The album ends with a very interesting version of "Take the A Train."

Of course, there was never a more masterful drummer than Max Roach. The work of this group overall was as good or better than that of Blakey's Jazz Messngers.

Hope some people remember the great Clifford Brown.

[clinthopson]

That's always been one of my favorite Brownies.

He was a major influence on a whole generation of trumpeters.

Don't overlook the brilliant contributions of Harold Land and Richie Powell.

[lonely-at-the-top]

Originally Posted by BlueMiles

The work of this group overall was as good or better than that of Blakey's Jazz Messngers.

I second your post until the above. Why make comparisons? Study in brown is great, Clifford is great, too, no doubt Full Stop
Moanin' is a great album, too. No comparison necessary

[Steve Reynolds]

Clifford was *the* trumpeter of that time as far as energy power and pure tone


nobody else compares before or after for what he played

[bigtiny]

Originally Posted by Steve Reynolds

Clifford was *the* trumpeter of that time as far as energy power and pure tone


nobody else compares before or after for what he played

Man, I HATE statements like that! Brown was a monster, but to discount the entire lineage of jazz trumpeters is pretty .... uh, I'm looking for a nice word, but I can't think of one....

There's a long list of trumpet players that were just as important as Brown -- Louis, Diz, Roy Eldridge, Maynard, Lee Morgan, Kinny Dorham, Freddie Hubbard, Woody Shaw -- just to name a few....

bigtiny

[Ron Thorne]

Originally Posted by bigtiny

Man, I HATE statements like that! Brown was a monster, but to discount the entire lineage of jazz trumpeters is pretty .... uh, I'm looking for a nice word, but I can't think of one....

Short-sighted?

Myopic?

[Mike Schwartz]

Originally Posted by bigtiny

There's a long list of trumpet players that were just as important as Brown -- Louis, Diz, Roy Eldridge, Maynard, Lee Morgan, Kinny Dorham, Freddie Hubbard, Woody Shaw -- just to name a few....

bigtiny

Not to mention a little before this Brown period, Theodore "Fats" Navarro, and a certain Miles Dewey Davis before and after Brownie.

[Steve Reynolds]

of that style, Lee was great, Fats was great - but it is not the same as Clifford Brown. Freddie was great in the 60's as well - but it is not Clifford Brown

I am not saying he is the greatest - he is the inventor of that style with some props to Fats before him - but he is the guy who took Roy's sound and brought it into the modern era. He is the first hard bop trumpeter and nobody has ever touched his sound


hey - and I like Mongezi Feza more and I've heard him on 2 records

today I would rather listen to Herb Robertson - but I'm not a subjectavist

for example KD was a fine trumpeter - but he never had an inkling of Clifford's power


like saying Hank Mobley is Sonny Rollins, dudes

[John L]

Different trumpeters have different attributes. Clifford was brilliant, and I love him. But if we are talking about the blues, I would rather hear a number of other trumpet players than Clifford, including Louis, Miles, Sweets, Hot Lips Page, Lee, Freddie, and (yes) Kenny.

[bigtiny]

Originally Posted by Steve Reynolds

of that style, Lee was great, Fats was great - but it is not the same as Clifford Brown. Freddie was great in the 60's as well - but it is not Clifford Brown

I am not saying he is the greatest - he is the inventor of that style with some props to Fats before him - but he is the guy who took Roy's sound and brought it into the modern era. He is the first hard bop trumpeter and nobody has ever touched his sound


hey - and I like Mongezi Feza more and I've heard him on 2 records

today I would rather listen to Herb Robertson - but I'm not a subjectavist

for example KD was a fine trumpeter - but he never had an inkling of Clifford's power


like saying Hank Mobley is Sonny Rollins, dudes

Listen man, Dizzy Gillespie was the first bop trumpet player. Get your history right. And again, if anybody has claim to the Eldtridge legacy it's Diz. You're right that Clifford was Clifford. I don't dispute that...and hey, he was a monster, but he wasn't the only one....

bigtiny

[John L]

Good point. "Took Roy's sound and brought it into the modern era" sounds, first and foremost, like a description of Dizzy Gillespie to me.

Clifford had a tremendous sense of lyricism, together with a huge brassy sound (the "power" that Steve speaks of) and extraordinary technical facility on the trumpet. That was quite a combination. And Diz...well he was Diz!

[Steve Reynolds]

I said hard bop, not bop...

big difference.....

Mr. Litwack knows what I am talking about

[bigtiny]

Originally Posted by Steve Reynolds

I said hard bop, not bop...

big difference.....

Mr. Litwack knows what I am talking about

You've been reading too many Downbeat articles.......

bigtiny

[Mike Schwartz]

Originally Posted by Steve Reynolds

I said hard bop, not bop...

big difference.....

Mr. Litwack knows what I am talking about

Jimmy Heath told me "ALL bop is hard.!"

[Steve Reynolds]

I used my ears to tell me the difference

find me a mid-temp minor mode (or even major mode) groover that is bebop


doesn't exist


listen to much of what is hard bop and this is what it is. The premise that late 40's bebop was the same thing as early to late 50's classic hard bop is simply off base

and I now that and I have barely listened to that music in years

[John L]

Steve: What about Miles? Wasn't he playing hard bop (however defined) on trumpet at least as early as Clifford, probably even earlier. The "Blueing" Prestige session already strikes me as pretty solidly hard bop.

[Pete C]

Diz comes directly out of Roy. Clifford comes directly out of Fats. Reynolds, get your history right. Nobody knows what you're talking about.

[Pete C]

I'd also describe most of the Brown-Roach recordings as late bebop, not hard bop. Closer to Bird, Fats & Wardell Gray than to Messengers or Silver.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by bigtiny

You've been reading too many Downbeat articles.......

bigtiny

[Mike Schwartz]

Originally Posted by Pete C

I'd also describe most of the Brown-Roach recordings as late bebop, not hard bop. Closer to Bird, Fats & Wardell Gray than to Messengers or Silver.

Good point.....they were still de-constructing standard tunes to some extent.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by John L

Clifford had a tremendous sense of lyricism, together with a huge brassy sound (the "power" that Steve speaks of) and extraordinary technical facility on the trumpet.

John, tracing back through Fats Navarro & Charlie Shavers, is there anyone earlier that you could place in the lineage?

[bigtiny]

Originally Posted by Pete C

John, tracing back through Fats Navarro & Charlie Shavers, is there anyone earlier that you could place in the lineage?

He's already mentioned Roy Eldridge....

bigtiny

[John L]

I guess that Pete is considering Pops-Roy-Diz to be a separate lineage, although certainly a closely related one. One of the important linkages here was Howard McGhee, who developed his style straight from Roy before falling under Diz's influence, and then had a influence on Fats.

I agree that Charlie Shavers is something like a Swing-era Fats. As for earlier trumpeters in that vein, maybe Jabbo Smith qualifies. No?

Freddie Webster had that big brassy sound that you hear in Fats and Clifford, as well as beautiful lyricism, although I guess that he came somewhat after Shavers.

To risk employing an over-used cliche, it all goes back to Louis.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by John L

I guess that Pete is considering Pops-Roy-Diz to be a separate lineage, although certainly a closely related one. One of the important linkages here was Howard McGhee, who developed his style straight from Roy before falling under Diz's influence, and then had a influence on Fats.

Yes, that's my take. McGhee retained more of Roy's grittiness of tone than Dizzy did.

I think Shavers was a cousin of Navarro's. It's the purity of tone and brassy power that I was talking about in the Shavers-Navarro-Brownie lineage. But of course there are no "pure" lineages.

[Bill Barton]

Originally Posted by John L

I guess that Pete is considering Pops-Roy-Diz to be a separate lineage, although certainly a closely related one. One of the important linkages here was Howard McGhee, who developed his style straight from Roy before falling under Diz's influence, and then had a influence on Fats.

I agree that Charlie Shavers is something like a Swing-era Fats. As for earlier trumpeters in that vein, maybe Jabbo Smith qualifies. No?

Freddie Webster had that big brassy sound that you hear in Fats and Clifford, as well as beautiful lyricism, although I guess that he came somewhat after Shavers.

To risk employing an over-used cliche, it all goes back to Louis.

Henry "Red" Allen should not be forgotten in this discussion. Hell, he sounded more "modern" than a lot of current players in the 1920s with Luis Russell and Fletcher Henderson. And he's another example of a player who could whisper as well as shout. How about Bill Coleman?

[Pete C]

As long as we're into a stylistic-historic tangent, I love Arthur Whetsol on his few Ellington features I'm aware of, Black Beauty being, of course, the most famous. Whether or not Miles was directly influenced by him, he's definitely a stylistic precursor to Miles, as I guess is Bix.

[clinthopson]

Diz and Fats Navarro were contemporaries. I think Fats probably had some influence in the development of Clifford's style.

For me, the easily recognizable sound that Clifford produced is one of the great sounds in jazz which echoes in the sounds of Lee Morgan, Donald Byrd, Freddie Hubbard and a whole lot of other trumpeters.

Louis Armstrong was first, if it wasn't for Pops. . .

[BlueMiles]

Wow, I guess I started something. I got the post going and then kind of forgot about it, only to return and see quite a bit of discussion (and debate, to put it mildly) on jazz trumpeters and styles.

My point would be that Brownie and Max were great musicians--distinctive, unmistakeable. The same can be said of Miles, Dizzy, or anyone who attains greatness.

I've been trying to get back to jazz trumpet, which was my first love--mainly Miles, Brownie, and Satchmo. In recent times I have been listening more to Lee Morgan, Brownie, and Freddie Hubbard. I don't think there is an active trumpeter who really engages me....Roy Hagrove is probably the closest.

[clinthopson]

Don't overlook Bix Beiderbecke, he was hugely influential and a very distinctive player.

Of the current crop, Nicholas Payton is my favorite.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by clinthopson

Of the current crop, Nicholas Payton is my favorite.

Among straight-ahead players, I tend to agree. Beautiful tone, awesome technique. He also acquitted himself better than I'd have imagined doing electric Miles music with the Miles from India project when I saw them in Montreal.