Naughty, naughty tiger!

I have left JC. If my deletions disrupt continuity, please accept my apology, but JC is no longer the place to be, as far as I am concerned.

[bluenoter]

My impulse toward schadenfreude stops a little short of my being glad to hear that Roy was attacked by a tiger. But just a little short.

[Monte Smith]

Evidently this man was very seriously injured and could die. Funny a ray of sunshine like Chris A. would find it hilarious.

[Underhound]

Originally posted by Monte Smith
Evidently this man was very seriously injured and could die. Funny a ray of sunshine like Chris A. would find it hilarious.

Where did Chris say it was hilarious? He did say the tiger was naughty didn't he?
Naughty for not appreciating the show business oppurtunity given to him by his benevolent trainers.

[Monte Smith]

Like a tiger?

I recall a visit I made to Vegas several years ago. The friend with whom I went was gung-ho to see Siegfreid & Roy. I did not dig sitting on the front row, just feet away from a tiger. This was neither enjoyable nor was it entertaining. I'm sorry for Roy, but it was simply a matter of time. Amazing to me that this didn't happen sooner. These are animals who desperately need to live in the wild!
Blooper

[HenryMc]

I guess thats the down side of staff-management negotiations

[Ron Thorne]

Originally posted by Monte Smith
Evidently this man was very seriously injured and could die. Funny a ray of sunshine like Chris A. would find it hilarious.

Huh? You can't be serious with respect to Chris Albertson!

Monte, though I've always found Sigfriend & Roy's "work" bizarre in nature, I've not passed judgement on several levels for many reasons. Now, I'd be less than honest if I didn't express my indignation at their overall approach/concept with respect to "wild' animals.

[Tom Storer]

In my one visit to Las Vegas, as interpreter for a French big-game hunter who was selling his "Larousse Encyclopedia of Big Game Animals" at a hunter's convention - Jesus, was that an experience - I saw Siegfried and Roy. I didn't know such kitsch was possible. At the end of their show they had a pair of white "Siberian snow tigers" sailing out over the audience in a plexiglass cage supported by cables, roaring and snarling, to swelling strains of music - the music being, I kid you not, "Born Free."

That said, I fervently wish a speedy recovery to Roy.

[Gordon B]

Originally posted by Underhound
Where did Chris say it was hilarious? He did say the tiger was naughty didn't he?
Naughty for not appreciating the show business oppurtunity given to him by his benevolent trainers.

If somebody from these boards got hit by a car while crossing the street and was in a life and death situation, would it be appropriate to start a thread called, "Naughty, naughty driver?"

Monte's right .

[Underhound]

Originally posted by Gordon B
If somebody from these boards got hit by a car while crossing the street and was in a life and death situation, would it be appropriate to start a thread called, "Naughty, naughty driver?"

Monte's right .

If the victim was somebody who made it a practice of taunting motorists by running back and forth across the highway to amuse others, then yes.

Naughty naughty driver.

[mjb]

Originally posted by Gordon B
If somebody from these boards got hit by a car while crossing the street and was in a life and death situation, would it be appropriate to start a thread called, "Naughty, naughty driver?"

Monte's right .

I suggest that the logic in this statement is just a bit skewed. The comparison is not valid. Why not put the board member in a wheelchair and see if anyone disagrees with you?

I found it to be a darkly (very darkly) humorous piece of news ... and I hasten to add that I am not suggesting that Chris' intention.

Seems to me that the thought police are everywhere.

[tippy]

I too hope he recovers. I don't know that I think it's cool to keep any animals. I have two cats that are 7 years old and have never been outside and I don't think that's right but at the same time, I got them from the San Francisco SPCA and they either would have been euthanized or ended up in some other apartment so... I try to make up for it by treating them with a great deal of consideration. Domestic dogs are a different story I think. They really do seem to belong with humans. What about people who keep birds? That seems downright evil in one sense but I bet there are more than a few birdkeepers on this board. It's just something that people do. Siegfried & Roy, like Las Vegas, are whacky American Institutions by now. I saw them in the 70s I think when they were a part of Barnum & Bailey. (Weren't they?) If all the wild animals lived in the wild, we probably would appreciate them less. I bet the animals in captivity live far longer than those in the wild. Haven't you watched those nature shows? Mother Nature is a bitch.

[Jim Dye]

Hmmm... Chris shows a sudden interest in Tigers. Yesterday, a Tiger was found in a Harlem apartment complex! Coincidence?

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/05/ny...rint&position=


October 5, 2003
Police Subdue a Tiger in Harlem Apartment
By ALAN FEUER and JASON GEORGE

To the sounds of enormous jungle roars, a police sniper rappelled down the side of a Harlem apartment building yesterday and fired tranquilizer darts through an open fifth-floor window to subdue — seat belts, please — a 350-pound Bengal tiger.

The daring, and creative, bit of sharpshooting helped end an episode in which the New York Police Department, unaccustomed to bagging big game, nonetheless managed to sedate the beast. Officials planned to send the tiger, temporarily being held at the Center for Animal Care and Control on 110th Street, to a conservancy in Ohio.

What the tiger, along with a four- to five-foot reptile called a caiman, was doing inside a cluttered apartment in the Drew Hamilton Houses at Adam Clayton Powell Jr. Boulevard and 141st Street remained a mystery yesterday.

In a news conference at the scene, Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly said the police became involved in the case on Wednesday when the apartment's resident, Antoine Yates, called to say he had been bitten by a pit bull. When the police went to investigate, Mr. Kelly said, Mr. Yates met them in the lobby. He went to Harlem Hospital with bites on an arm and a leg.

On Thursday, the police got an anonymous tip saying a wild animal was somewhere in the city. On Friday, another call directed them to the exact address. On Friday night, the police found no one home, but talked to a neighbor who complained of large amounts of urine and a strong smell coming through the ceiling, Mr. Kelly said. The neighbor said her daughter had seen the tiger.

Yesterday, the tiger's existence was confirmed. after a hole was cut in the apartment door.

Mr. Yates checked out of Harlem Hospital early yesterday, prompting an inquiry into his whereabouts. But investigators said last night he had been located in Philadelphia, where he was being treated at the University of Pennsylvania Medical Center. How Mr. Yates got to Philadelphia and the nature of his injuries were unclear. The police said he faced charges of reckless endangerment.

The caiman also was taken to the Center for Animal Care and Control shelter, the police said.

"This is an only-in-New-York story," Mr. Kelly said.

Getting to the tiger, a male, was no simple task. From an apartment on the fourth floor, the police first eased a pole-mounted camera out the window to keep track of him. Meanwhile, on the seventh floor, they prepared a team to rappel down so they would have a clearer view when firing tranquilizer darts to subdue him.

The police also called in animal experts, including Dr. Robert A. Cook, head veterinarian at the Bronx Zoo. Dr. Cook, visibly angry over the cramped conditions in which the tiger prowled, said keeping the creature in such a setting was "crazy."

"If he had escaped it would have been a very bad thing," he said.

It was shortly before 4:30 p.m. when the police sniper, Officer Martin Duffy, armed with a dart gun and a rifle with live ammunition, began to rappel down toward the window. He fired one dart a few minutes later, which drew a knee-shaking roar from inside the apartment.

After a few more minutes it was determined that the tiger had been hit, the police said, but was not yet fully sedated. So Officer Duffy fired another dart.

As hundreds of onlookers gathered on the street, some began to wonder if this urban big cat would get along so well in the less cosmpolitan reaches of Ohio.

"My concern is that the city cat won't make it in the country," said Lynnette Braxton, 49. "He's going to have no jazz, no hip-hop. He's going to miss the Harlem Renaissance."

[tippy]

Oh yeah, I wanted to mention on the new this very morning, a 5-foot alligator AND a Big tiger were removed from a Harlem apartment. What a crazy scene! They showed film of the tiger lying on the kitchen floor with cat toys. He took up most of the floor. They had to tranquilize him to get him out. Somebody had called in being bit by a wild animal so I'm guessing this was the owner.

Do you think that those animals are evenly matched? In the water, the alligator would be able to kill the tiger, right? On land, a tiger would probably only go after an alligator if he was starving because that skin is probably real tough to deal with. I don't think I've ever seen a showdown between tigers and alligators. Do they even share habitats? I mean besides Harlem.

[Uli]

Not surprisingly, the board's leading bushies have absolutely no consideration for a wild tiger's right to be naughty. It's only the rich surpressor's well being they care about.

[tippy]

The tigers are Siegfried and Roy's pets. You don't deal with man-eating tigers without forming a special bond with them. S&R's success is testament to their successful relationship with the animals. Risk of mauling goes with the territory. Hell, more people are killed by dogs every year. All animals are born wild. Anybody who has dominion over an animal--that is keeping one at home, suppressing their natural instincts--hasn't a right to point fingers.

[bluenoter]

Tippy, I see your point, but like it or not, some animals are better suited to domestication than others. There are plenty of "wild" cats and dogs in urban settings; we call them strays, and animal rights groups beg us to adopt them.

From another article on Roy and the tiger:

Horn appeared alone on stage with the tiger and told the crowd the animal was making its debut in the show — a claim hotel officials said was part of the act.

Feldman said the animal had been used in the show for several years.

Well, no wonder the tiger attacked Roy. It was insulted!

[tippy]

Yes, some animals, due to their manageable size or lack of ferocity, are much easier to submit to our will and people probably aren't going to pay much to watch Spot jump through a hoop. If you have the facilities, the know-how, I see no difference. It is purely the uniqueness that takes people back. Gazillions of domestic pets are mistreated every day.

[bluenoter]

But after generations of having been submitted to our will, kitties and doggies are so thoroughly domesticated that animal rights groups consider it cruel to let them run wild.

[tippy]

Cruel because we form attachments to them or because the wild is overrun with concrete and cars. But the Wild treats all animals the same. I'm not advocating that we all loose our pets, I'm just saying that S&R have bigger, more unique pets and I don't know that their animals are genuinely mistreated or more than usual to feel smug about Friday's accident.

[mke]

The police also called in animal experts, including Dr. Robert A. Cook, head veterinarian at the Bronx Zoo. Dr. Cook, visibly angry over the cramped conditions in which the tiger prowled, said keeping the creature in such a setting was "crazy."

"If he had escaped it would have been a very bad thing," he said.

Great insight from the expert! I wonder if he would have been less angry if the tiger had been kept in a bigger apartment?

[tippy]

I'd be more calm if I could live in higher rents. After living in the same rent controlled place for 5 years, I do understand the caveats of rent control: your rent increases but the apartment deteriorates. I guess the strategy if you are not going to invest in someone else's property or buy your own property is to move to nicer rent controlled place. Maybe buildings with less wear and tear.

[patricia]

Although it's true that most people would never see even one of the jungle animals they have seen, if there were no circuses, or shows like the ones presented by S&R, and others, that is the only, IMO, good thing about their captivity.
We seem to have lost sight of the basic nature of wild animals. They are not suited, obviously, to being caged and brought out to entertain us. How arrogant we are that we even think that forcing them to perform tricks for our diversion is a good idea. Tigers are ferocious carnivores, which is how they survive in the wild. That is what they are and that is what they always will be, "domestication" notwithstanding.
Although I certainly hope that Roy recovers from his injuries, I think it was just a matter of time before this happened.
These animals are still TIGERS, not domestic cats, regardless of the way they are being raised and treated as family by Siegfried and Roy. The reason that their act is so amazing is that it goes against everything we know about wild animals. But wild animals, particularly ones which survive by killing other animals for food in their natural environment, are never really tame.

[Tanager]

Originally posted by bluenoter
But after generations of having been submitted to our will, kitties and doggies are so thoroughly domesticated that animal rights groups consider it cruel to let them run wild.

It's also cruel because feral cats (more so than feral dogs, which aren't nearly as numerous) are a serious environmental problem, one of mankind's making. They have directly contributed to the extinction of several species of bird, and they continue to pose a major threat to bird populations. Fluffy no more belongs in the "wild" than does a pet gerbil - Fluffy's just a little better equipped to survive, perhaps.

Domestic cats allowed to roam outdoors also suffer many more health risks than indoors-only felines and have demonstrably lower life expectancies in urban and semi-urban settings. As Rita says, they're not "wild" and haven't been for centuries.

[Tanager]

Originally posted by tippy
All animals are born wild.

With all due respect, this is a gross over-simplification. At one point, the domestic cat's (and dog's) ancestors were wild animals living in an ecosystem to which they were adapted and which, in turn, was itself adapted to their presence. They had not evolved any dependency on man, and their existence neither threatened their environment nor was it threatened by that same environment. None of these facts has been true for centuries.

Having said that, I do agree that taking genuinely wild creatures from the wild and making them do tricks is more than a little bizarre and cruel. And collecting wild parrots, etc. from the wild for the cage bird industry continues to threaten the populations of many tropical avian species.

On one last question, no, alligators do not share habitat with tigers in the wild - alligators are only found in the New World. Crocodiles, however, are found in much of tropical Asia, including areas where tigers roam, but I don't think they'd prey on a full-grown tiger - I don't think that the ones which share range with the tiger are as big as the monster estuarine crocs such as those found in northern Australia, which are both big and very, very aggressive. Tigers are, AFAIK, quite capable swimmers and not afraid of water, so I'm sure that the two animals do occasionally mix.

[Alastair]

Originally posted by Chris A






Is this a "before" or "after" pic?

[mke]

Originally posted by Alastair
Is this a "before" or "after" pic?

I'm guessing that this is "before" the tiger grew up and attacked him.

[Enforcer]

Originally posted by tippy
Oh yeah, I wanted to mention on the new this very morning, a 5-foot alligator AND a Big tiger were removed from a Harlem apartment. What a crazy scene! They showed film of the tiger lying on the kitchen floor with cat toys. He took up most of the floor. They had to tranquilize him to get him out. Somebody had called in being bit by a wild animal so I'm guessing this was the owner.

Do you think that those animals are evenly matched? In the water, the alligator would be able to kill the tiger, right? On land, a tiger would probably only go after an alligator if he was starving because that skin is probably real tough to deal with. I don't think I've ever seen a showdown between tigers and alligators. Do they even share habitats? I mean besides Harlem.

Believe it or not, I once spent a lot of time searching to see if this specific confrontation was documented. I was also curious about lions and crocs, which is more likely to occur because of the Nile Crocs found in Africa. But there was a video clip I saw on cable TV a few years ago in which a tiger encountered a croc in the water, somewhere in Asia. I don't remember the size of the croc, but it was of the estuarine species and it looked *big*. Anyway, the croc did, in fact, attack the swimming tiger and killed it. It was not a very long battle. The croc seized it by the neck and death rolled it under the surface of the water.

Lions and crocs cross paths also, but not much is documented. A big croc in the water seems to have the advantage. On land, the cat would have a big edge.

Larry

[Jazzooo]

"We seem to have lost sight of the basic nature of wild animals. They are not suited, obviously, to being caged and brought out to entertain us. "

One attack in 30,000 performances is far from "obviously" proving that point, Patricia. That's like saying that because Lorena Bobbitt cut off her husband's schlong, it's obvious that humans weren't meant to live together...at least in houses with sharp objects.

FWIW, I've never seen one of their shows, but we did check out their amazing zoo in Vegas which seemed to be the most culturally advanced and animal-friendly place I've seen other than the Wild Animal Park in San Diego. I seem to remember that these two guys have sponsored breeding programs and have been instrumental in bringing at least one kind of rare tiger back from the brink of extinction.

I hear Roy is fighting for his life this morning. I hope he makes it.