Really large ensembles

Nate Dorward · October-5th-2003, 11:14 AM

A quick question for folks. I'm reviewing a disc, Free Music Festival Orchestra: Live at the Metropolitan Art Center, which is the brainchild of John Gruntfest. It's a free-jazzish large-scale composition/improvisation performed by--get this--about 70 musicians (no personnel on the sleeve, but I dropped him a note to get a little extra info), plus even on one track the sound of a martial arts ensemble led by Master Oki. Recorded in 1979, & actually it's a pretty stirring slab of sound (though I should note that the disc simply contains the 3 rehearsal performances & the eventual festival performance, each about 10 minutes in length, so you go over the same territory 4 times). Anyway, my question was simply if anyone could think of an comparable venture. There are some large ensembles in free jazz but none even close to this large to my knowledge--LJCO & GUO have usually been in the teens to twenties, even the biggest LIO ensemble I know of has just brushed 40 players.

Jon Abbey · October-5th-2003, 11:24 AM

didn't Braxton have a piece for four orchestras in the seventies, around 160 people?

Captain Hate · October-5th-2003, 11:27 AM

You mean that Music for the Spheres thing on Arista? Wasn't Lester Bowie's Sho-Nuff Orchestra absolutely huge also?

VIBEr · October-5th-2003, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon Abbey
didn't Braxton have a piece for four orchestras in the seventies, around 160 people?

Music for Four Orchestras, recorded at Oberlin College in the nid-seventies; a friend of mine played marimba on it while he was a student there.

Also, Centipede by Keith Tippett was around 100 musicians, as I recall.

Uli · October-5th-2003, 11:51 AM

I am going to a concert this pm, Douglas Ewart, Crepuscule (krep'uh skewel(i think}} which is billed as a concert by over 100 musicians among them some of Chicago's finest toghether with some kids.

graypencil · October-5th-2003, 02:01 PM

The largest actual touring semi-permanent ensembles I can recall
was the Stan Kenton Innovations orchestra wchich ( to the best
of my recollection was somewhere in the 50/ 60 body count range,
what with the already bloated Kenton band plus extra horns and strings )

I also recall it was musically rather tedious ,featuring a bunch
of Bob Graettinger stuff ..and some Pete Rugolo scores,
which made a bit more sense IMO ..

There have been a few other" one offs"..like the Rolf Liebermann
"Concerto for Jazz Band and Orchestra" which I heard
performed in the 50s by the Cleveland SO ( approx. 95 mus )
plus the Sauter-Finegan Orch...19or20? more )

VIBEr · October-5th-2003, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by graypencil
I also recall it was musically rather tedious ,featuring a bunch
of Bob Graettinger stuff ..and some Pete Rugolo scores,
which made a bit more sense IMO ..

gp, did that band ever play the Graettinger stuff live? I know they played the Rugolo charts on gigs (I used to own a live CD of that band), but don't recall any Graettinger played anywhere else except in the studio.

Uli · October-6th-2003, 08:47 AM

Yesterday's Crepuscule concert was indeed the largest band I ever heard live. It was not only large in number of musicians but the band also covered a large space in Washington park. I was a bit late and when we arrived it was in full swing. The musicians had gathered in instrumental groups. First came upon the drummers, maybe 10 or so. People I recognized were Don Moye, Avereeayl Ra, Tim Daisy and some more faces. Had a really nice groove going on. Next in my circle came the reeds. Same number of players. David Boykin, Hannah Jon Taylor, Nikki Mitchell, Rempis,Ernest Dawkins, Dennis Winslet and more. In between all the groups there was kids dance/peotry/rap performances going on and some lonely horn or other players. It was not easy even to figure out who was performing or just digging. The string players had an very soft hum going on. Harrisson Bankhead, Cecylle Savag, Darius Savage, Josh Abrams, Jeff Parker on guitar, Savoir Fair & Jim Baker on violin and more. The brass players were a bit underrepresented, imho. Couple of young trumpet players whose faces I remember but not their names, Griffith from 8 bold souls. A womens's vocal/shakere group and what I think was a gathering of some "latin cats" They had everything rhythm & horns. Cobe Watkins and Douglas Ewart were part of that goup, Douglas playing one of his invented instruments (a ski with hubs etc).

then the groups started to move together. One drummer told me they were to meet the brass, But the brass was moving too. With talk, poetry, more dance, statements prayers, riffs etc everybody gather in a big circle to perform the final part of the compostion which Douglas stressed that the musicians need to practice more so that they could go on peforming it next year.

All in all a very beautiful fall afternoon in the park.

Nate Dorward · October-6th-2003, 10:25 AM

In Art Pepper's autobiography he gives one anecdote about the performance of "City of Glass" at a live gig in Chicago, so evidently it was indeed performed live on occasion--but I note the venue was the Civic Opera House, so obvious it wasn't your usual dance gig.

Thanks for the info, guys.

Brian Olewnick · October-6th-2003, 10:40 AM

Nate, I'll have to check when I get home, but the Globe Unity record, "Jahrmarkt/Local Fair" (on Po Torch, I think), has to have 60 or 70 musicians involved.

john fernandes · October-6th-2003, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Uli
Yesterday's Crepuscule concert was indeed the largest band I ever heard live.

All in all a very beautiful fall afternoon in the park.

That sounds wild, thanks for the description.

Martin · October-6th-2003, 12:01 PM

Centipede was around 50 musicians (hence the name!). On "Septober Energy" there are 55 players involved.

"Local Fair" has 64 musicians altogether.

Bill Barton · October-6th-2003, 12:42 PM

The Vinny Golia Large Ensemble currently has 37 members (more than twice the size of a "standard" big band) and is a working group, not just a recording group.

graypencil · October-6th-2003, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by VIBEr
gp, did that band ever play the Graettinger stuff live? I know they played the Rugolo charts on gigs (I used to own a live CD of that band), but don't recall any Graettinger played anywhere else except in the studio.

Since I never did hear the Innovations group live ( like you , only on record), I can't be sure ..
Maybe some of the real SK experts on the Kentonia list would know for sure.

VIBEr · October-6th-2003, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Martin
Centipede was around 50 musicians (hence the name!).

50 musicians, 100 legs = Centipede. Pretty clever, those Brits.

shrugs · October-6th-2003, 06:56 PM

Has Braxton's music for 100 tubas ever been performed?

graypencil · October-6th-2003, 07:55 PM

Sspeaking of tubas:

I recall a drummer friend of mine telling me of an
instance years ago when the late Rich Matteson
assembled a group of over 200 tubas at some low brass
clinic ..

..and they all played "Oleo" ..real fast ..with a rhythm section!