Old October-20th-2003, 09:47 PM   #1
Monte Smith
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The DNC Invites You to...Dream!

Come Party With Your Party
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Old October-20th-2003, 10:10 PM   #2
Dr Dave
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bill...so sleazy...bill...so greazy...bill...he haunts me sooooooo....
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Old October-20th-2003, 10:45 PM   #3
jesus marion joseph
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Man, that picture of the C-man has got to be about 15 years old.
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Old October-20th-2003, 11:18 PM   #4
GoodSpeak
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OK Monte.

What the hell's your ridiculous point THIS time?

That Democrats shouldn't host fund raisers?

That dreams are bad...unless sponsored by your dimwit republicans who bought AH-nold the governor's seat in CALL-EEEE-FOUR-NEE-AH?

That Clinton is the devil incarnate?

That you haven't a CLUE?


What...?





Find a new hobby horse to ride.

Last edited by GoodSpeak; October-20th-2003 at 11:21 PM.
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Old October-20th-2003, 11:45 PM   #5
BFrank
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This page is a little more interesting...

Kicking Ass
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Old October-21st-2003, 12:23 AM   #6
GoodSpeak
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Oh...I kinda like that site, BFrank ;-)

Thanks!
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Old October-21st-2003, 09:22 AM   #7
Gary Sisco
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There's a lot of truth in this little piece (though implying that the number of people who decline to identify themselves as Demos are therefore Repubs isn't valid. Where I live, the huge majority of people consciously avoid aligning themselves with either party. Most Americans vote for candidates, not parties. Neither party commands a majority's support, while their individual candidates may).

There is a lot of truth in here, though, and I post it on this "party" thread because I can't imagine a party I'd less like to attend. Talk about boring. I'd much rather go down to the local tavern for a few. Lot cheaper, too.

From NYT today:

Rescuing the Democrats

October 21, 2003
By DAVID BROOKS





NEWTON, Iowa — In the current issue of The Weekly
Standard, Fred Barnes argues that we have seen the birth of
a Republican majority. In 1992, Barnes points out,
Republicans held 176 House seats. Today, they hold 229. In
1992, the G.O.P. controlled 8 state legislatures; now it
controls 21. In 1992, there were 18 Republican governors;
now there are 27.

But the really eye-popping change is in party
identification. In Franklin Roosevelt's administration, 49
percent of voters said they were Democrats. But that number
has been dropping ever since, and now roughly 32 percent of
voters say they are. As Mark Penn, a former Clinton
pollster, has observed, "In terms of the percentage of
voters who identify themselves as Democrats, the Democratic
Party is currently in its weakest position since the dawn
of the New Deal."

The Democratic presidential candidates wending their way
through Iowa, New Hampshire and the other primary states
are offering theories about the party's decline, and what
can be done about it.

Howard Dean argues that the Democratic Party has lost its
soul. If it returns to its true fighting self, instead of
compromising with Republicans, it will energize new and
otherwise disenchanted voters.

Dick Gephardt argues that the party has lost touch with the
economic interests of working men and women. Instead of
offering bread-and-butter benefits to lower-middle-class
workers, it endorses free trade policies that destroy job
security.

Joe Lieberman argues that the party has become too liberal
and too secular. It has lost touch with the values of the
great American middle.

John Edwards has the most persuasive theory. He argues that
most voters do not place candidates on a neat left-right
continuum. But they are really good at sensing who shares
their values. They are really good at knowing who respects
them and who doesn't. Edwards's theory is that the
Democrats' besetting sin over the past few decades has been
snobbery.

Edwards came by this outlook autobiographically. On the
campaign trail, Edwards will mention - every five minutes
or so - that his father worked in a textile mill and his
mother retired from the post office. He didn't grow up
poor. But he does say that his parents were not treated
with the respect and dignity they deserved.

Edwards's father rose to become a mill supervisor, but with
only a high school degree, he was perpetually
underestimated by the college grads around him. Edwards
seems to have been raised by folks who know what it feels
like to be condescended to.

His campaign is based on the argument that the Democrats
need to nominate a person from Middle America, not from the
coastal educated class. "My campaign is a different
Democratic campaign," Edwards said in his announcement
speech. "Not only will I run for the real America, I will
run in the real America. . . . Democrats too often act like
rural America is just someplace to fly over between a
fund-raiser in Manhattan and a fund-raiser in Beverly
Hills."

Edwards draws an implicit contrast between himself and
Howard Dean and John Kerry by pointing out that he worked
for everything he has. He loaded trucks to pay for college.
"It didn't hurt me at all," he says.

He draws an explicit contrast with George Bush, arguing
that the Bush administration rewards wealth and punishes
work. This is not about economics, he says; it's about
values. The Bush administration disrespects working
Americans. It lowers taxes for people who sit around the
pool and collect capital gains, while shifting the burden
to people who wake up early, work hard and hope to get
rich.

Obviously Edwards's campaign has not caught fire. (Although
it is far too early to count him out. One thing I learned
last week in Iowa is that voters are far more interested in
Gephardt, Kerry and Edwards than we in the national media.)
But that doesn't mean Edwards's theory is wrong, or that
Democratic primary voters accurately understand their
plight. When I interviewed people during the 2000 campaign
I found many voters preferred Democratic policies to
Republican ones. But they didn't trust Al Gore because they
thought he looked down on them. They felt Bush could come
to their barbershop and fit right in.

Except for Bill Clinton, Democrats have nominated
presidential candidates who try to figure out Middle
American values by reading the polls, instead of feeling
them in their gut. If they do it again, the long, slow
slide will continue.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/21/op...4f3ebfe88db980
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Old October-21st-2003, 09:26 AM   #8
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Of course, it's rather a stretch to except Billy Boy, as there was never a more avid poll watcher or chameleon than he, and also, apart from his youth through high school, he can't really be said to have lived a rough life. I mean, let's face it: Oxford to governor to president to civilian with 6-figure pension and completely socialized medicine, and who apparently doesn't have to repay millions of dollars in legal fees, is not exactly a working class life.
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Old October-21st-2003, 09:31 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gary Sisco
Most Americans vote for candidates, not parties.

Nah, "Most Americans" just don't vote.
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Old October-21st-2003, 11:50 AM   #10
Gary Sisco
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What does it matter, how many?

The point is that people who do, don't have a need for polls to them what matters to people. Health care matters to people. Child care matters to people. Trying to pay the rent or mortgaage and utilities and groceries and medical bills and etc while still having to pay the taxes that the "others" do not, as they write the laws that excuse themselves from having to pay and they also own the banks that own the national debt that they run up for everyone else to pay off. They worry about their quality of life going down the tubes in their elder years, because they know they won't have enough bread to cover their expenses and most believe that they won't have the social security and medicare benefits that *they've already paid for and continue to pay for* (again, unlike the "others" who've excused most of their income from being taxed for social security as well, even as they spend the trust fund that others contributed to *as insurance premiums,* not welfare taxes). They worry about for the first time in American history their children will likely not have a better quality of life than they had, as the kinds of jobs that allowed for working class people to approach a middle-class lifestyle get moved to "developing" countries where the profit margins are larger, get replaced by the millions with bullshit "service" jobs with few or no "benefits" and pensions that are a thing of the past, for them. That's the kind of stuff they worry about. They don't need polls or politicians to tell them what's important. What they could use, on the other hand, are a few of them who already understand these things without having to be told. That's one of the reasons why Bernard Sanders gets consistently elected to Congress from Vermont, which is, despite its marketing campaigns, a very conservative place, outside the Burlington area, made up mainly of republicans and libertarian types.

Clinton's clever but cynical "I feel your pain" touched that nerve, while George I's indifference to the economy -- which he inadvertently showed the whole world that he hadn't been in a retail establishment in so long he didn't know what a scanner was when he encountered one -- showed the other, also cynical extreme -- a poseur who doesn't even have to do his own shopping or anything else and probably has no need to carry cash with him, either, not having to deal with those kinds of details in his own life, buying some socks to demonstrate his concern for the economy. Socks that, almost guaranteed, were made in Vietnam or somewhere where the workers are paid 7 cents/hour, and the purchase of which only buried some more American jobs. And etc.

Dean's running around playing the Park Ave Populist (whose father has a seat on the stock exchange and did the while Dean was growing up) is seen by just as many as yet another example of this kind of cynicism.

My only point is that there is a difference in the way people experience fears and worry when they actually have to work for a wage and pay the bills out of their wages, than is the perception of people for whom these things are "issues," not the problems of everyday life, because they're owners of capital and other people work *for* them and support them in the style to which they are accustomed, both through the creation of their capital and through the paying of the taxes they live off, all the while enjoying things like completely socialized medicine (for them but at working people's expense).

People aren't stupid. They may not be able, all of them, to articulate these things in political terms but that is not the same thing as not understanding them as realities in their lives.

And by the way, there were times in the country's history when real self-made men managed to rise to the top in the presidency. Calvin Coolidge, for example, to name one. Abraham Lincoln, to name another. These sorts of jobs have not always been limited to the 1%ers or those who they embrace.

Today, we take it for granted that if they're not of the club or without the club's very solid endorsement, they aren't in the ballgame. We have now a real political *class* in this country that dictates the terms of life to the rest of us. They can have socialized medicine for example, but we cannot. And it is they who decide these things, not us. Indeed, it's they who decide who we'll vote for, because it's they who decide who the candidates will be, and it will always be one of their own, from whichever faction, guaranteed.

In any case, they're not fun people to party with ...
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Old October-21st-2003, 11:59 AM   #11
GoodSpeak
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gary Sisco
What does it matter, how many?

What does it matter...?

Because you brought it up as some sort of justification for your negative comments about Clinton, that's why.

I suppose next you'll tell us that being brought up in Hope, Arkansas with a single mom is living in the lap of luxury.


But...what does it matter, eh?

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Old October-22nd-2003, 09:47 AM   #12
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Typical, that the hardships of one's youth (as if it's an unusual thing to be raised by a single mom, or have an alkie father, or etc.) are held up for exam, but not the cush *rest of his life* when he never had to hold an actual job and still ended up if not filthy rich, being able to live as if he is, anyway. (And what's the difference, there, actually?)

He was *governor* of Arkansas, Goodie, for a hell of a lot longer than he was a po' boy cracker suffering so very much. Did he have to mow lawns and deliver papers, too? My... He was also, by the way, governor of Arkansas when Reagan's CIA was flying support missions to its terrorist army in Nicaragua, using a "secret" base in Arkansas. You think he didn't know about that? If so, he's dumber than I thought he was. Tens of thousands of other Americans knew about it, at the time, if they've chosen to forget about it, since. If that's not being a member of the club, I don't know what might constitute membership. Shooting an unarmed Salvadoran woman?

The number of working-class presidents in the past is not and can't be a justification for the exclusion of actual working people from the political *class* in this country *in the present,* Goodie. Give it a rest. Social change, after all, does normally involve a change. Classism of the past is not a justification for it in the present or future. In any case, you're a party hack, Goodie. Good for you. I'm not. I have no party loyalty and won't. I prefer to use my own brain and form my own ideas. Like most Americans, actually, the majority of whom identify with neither party, much less its icons of the past. Clinton is history, bud. Get used to it.

And, let's have a class issue reality check here: Name one -- one -- piece of legislation that had Clinton's personal commitment to getting through Congress that benefited the American working class in any way whatsoever.

The truth of the matter in the article I posted is that many, many working class people *do* regard the dem leadership as arrogant and condescending (see paragraph above). If nothing else the mere fact that they choose to take its vote for granted as belonging to them illustrates this quite nicely, thanks. (Again, see paragraph above.) Every two years at election time all the slogans come out again. Health care. American jobs. All that shit. And then the election's over and they go back to wagging repub tails.

But, you know what? People aren't stupid, my friend, and they don't give a shit what a hack has to say about anything.

And that's one of the primary reasons why the repub party in this country is the only party that can actually claim a working-class base. Whether or not you or any dem thinks it should be the other way around, matters not, apparently, to most working people. And please, please don't start up about "labor." When dems talk about labor they're talking about union mandarins, not workers. And in any case, only about 12 % of the work force is unionized to begin with, and most of them are accounted for by bureaucrats of one government or another, teachers, and cops.

And if there's anyone more condescending and arrogant toward, not to mention out of touch with, the American working class than the dem party, it's the "progressive" "left," which is almost entirely non-working class, and has been for decades, now, going back to mid-last century.

Last edited by Rainman; October-22nd-2003 at 09:48 AM.
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Old October-22nd-2003, 01:38 PM   #13
Al in NYC
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If course it might also help if the Democratic Party actually stood for something. Whatever else one may think of them, one thing that has to be respected about the conservative movement people in the Republican Party is their willingness to be in the minority for quite a while, but to keep chipping away and popularizing their ideas until they had the party solidly in their hands. They broadened their appeal, without losing the the essential message, to the point where they could run sucessful campaigns on what had been only a decade before "extremist" positions. In so doing they made the Repubs the party that stands for something, however loathsome, and left the Demos almost totally as a party of political reaction.
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Old October-22nd-2003, 01:47 PM   #14
Al in NYC
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Quote:
And that's one of the primary reasons why the repub party in this country is the only party that can actually claim a working-class base. Whether or not you or any dem thinks it should be the other way around, matters not, apparently, to most working people.
Well, a WHITE working-class base. The black working-class are the Democrats most reliable voters, and essentially made up the difference in Gore's majority in 2000 (of course, not a winning majority). IMO a large part of the Republican appeal to white working class voters has been based on an adroit exploiting of just this racial divide (most often maskd as an urban/suburban divide), but that's a subject that seems to be being hashed over on another thread...
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