Warning ignored in Iraq

We all know that--contrary to what Rice and other in that mob have said--there were warning signs before 9/11. Well, the appointed regime had blinders on again last week--will they never learn?


Iraq Copter Attack Kills 16 U.S. Troops

By TINI TRAN

• FALLUJAH, Iraq (AP) - Leaflets seen in mosques in this tense Sunni Muslim region warned of new attacks using "modern and advanced methods'' only days before gunners brought down a U.S. Army Chinook helicopter, killing 16 and wounding 20 others.
  
  The Sunday attack on the helicopter, carrying dozens of soldiers on their way home for leave, was the deadliest single strike against U.S. forces since the war began March 20.
  
  Three other Americans - one 1st Armored Division soldier and two civilians working for the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers - were also killed Sunday in separate attacks, making it the bloodiest day for U.S. forces since March 23.
  
  Witnesses said the attackers used shoulder-fired missiles against the Chinook, a sign of the increasing sophistication of Iraq's elusive anti-U.S. fighters as the insurgency intensifies.
  
  The giant helicopter was flying with a second Chinook headed for Baghdad International Airport when two missiles streaked into the sky and slammed into the rear of the aircraft, witnesses told The Associated Press. It crashed in flames in farmers' fields west of Baghdad.
  
  An unsigned leaflet posted Friday at mosques in this area of the Sunni Triangle, where anti-American sentiment runs high, urged people to avoid public places over the weekend. "Special operations against occupation forces might be carried out by using modern and advanced methods,'' the leaflet said.
  
  The leaflet also warned people stay at home, avoid going to work or school and stay away from markets Saturday and Sunday. "Any persons who move during this period will be responsible for their own safety,'' the note said.
  
  U.S. officials have blamed Saddam Hussein loyalists, foreign fighters and Islamic extremists for the stepped up attacks on the U.S. occupation.
  
  On Monday, 16 U.S. soldiers wounded in the helicopter attack arrived in Germany for treatment at an American military hospital, a spokeswoman said.
  
  Nine of the patients were admitted to the intensive care unit, where five were in a serious condition, said Marie Shaw, a spokeswoman for the Landstuhl Regional Medical Center, the biggest U.S. military hospital in Europe.
  
  "They are being evaluated and surgeries are planned throughout the day,'' Shaw said.
  
  The injured were among nearly 30 soldiers who arrived aboard a C-17 transport in predawn rain at the Ramstein Air Base. Fourteen were taken on stretchers to an ambulance bus waiting to take them to the nearby hospital, while the others walked.
  
  "It's clearly a tragic day for America,'' Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said Sunday in Washington. "In a long, hard war, we're going to have tragic days. But they're necessary. They're part of a war that's difficult and complicated.''
  
  President Bush, who spent the day at his Texas ranch Sunday, refused to comment personally on the attacks.
  
  L. Paul Bremer, the head of the occupation in Iraq, repeated demands that Syria and Iran prevent fighters from crossing their borders into Iraq.
  
  "They could do a much better job of helping us seal that border and keeping terrorist out of Iraq,'' he told the cable network CNN. The "enemies of freedom'' in Iraq "are using more sophisticated techniques to attack our forces.''
  
  At the Chinook crash site Monday, a giant crane lifted pieces of wreckage onto a truck, as soldiers sealed off the immediate area, deep in the "Sunni Muslim Triangle'' that has produced the most violent opposition to the U.S. occupation of Iraq.
  
  On Saturday, fire broke out at an oil pipeline in Samara, 60 miles northwest of Baghdad after it was hit by a bomb, an oil official said under condition of anonymity. The pipeline runs between northern Kirkuk to a Baghdad refinery.
  
  A second explosion occurred Saturday on the pipeline between Saddam's hometown of Tikrit and Beiji, the site of Iraq's largest refinery on an LPG line that links Kirkuk to Taji gas factory in Baghdad.
  
  The area has seen widespread opposition to the occupation. Constant sabotage to pipelines and the decayed state of Iraqi's infrastructure have slowed efforts to revive the country's giant oil industry.
  
  U.S. officials have been warning of the danger of shoulder-fired missiles, thousands of which are now scattered from Saddam's arsenals, and such missiles are believed to have downed two U.S. copters since May 1. Those two crashes - of smaller helicopters - wounded only one American.
  
  The loaded-down Chinook was a dramatic new target. The insurgents have been steadily advancing in their weaponry, first using homemade roadside bombs, then rocket-fired grenades in ambushes on American patrols, and vehicles stuffed with explosives and detonated by suicide attackers.
  
  The Pentagon announced Friday it was expanding the rest and recreation leave program for troops in Iraq. As of Sunday, it said, the number of soldiers departing daily to the United States via a transit facility in neighboring Kuwait would be increased from 280 to 480.
  
  At least 139 American soldiers, including those killed in the helicopter crash, have been killed by hostile fire since Bush declared an end to combat on May 1. Around 377 U.S. service members have died since the beginning of military operations in Iraq.
  
  The death toll Sunday surpasses one of the deadliest single attacks during the Iraq war: the March 23 ambush of the 507th Maintenance Company, in which 11 soldiers were killed, nine were wounded and seven captured, including Pfc. Jessica Lynch. A total of 28 Americans around Iraq - including the casualties from the ambush - died on that day, the deadliest for U.S. troops during the Iraq war.

[Clay Fink]

I was shocked this morining when I heard Rumsfeld say that things like this are "necessary":

"It's clearly a tragic day for America ... In a long, hard war, we're going to have tragic days," Rumsfeld said. "But they're necessary. They're part of a war that's difficult and complicated."

I think "necessary" is really the wrong word. If he really means this, rather than "inevitable" or "expected", then he is not living in reality. I'd be really pissed if it was MY kid who was "necessarily" killed on the way to R&R.

His use of that word, intentional or not, tells us a lot about his view of the world. What he means is that our young people deaths are necessary in order to atain some higher goal. In this case, a higher goal that is illdefined. Is it the "war on terror", "weapons of mass destruction", "building an Arab democracy"? Why was it necessary that these kids die? I'm sure he'd say "all of the above". But each of these goals crumbles under the most elementary analysis.

[jesus marion joseph]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chris A
[B]We all know that--contrary to what Rice and other in that mob have said--there were warning signs before 9/11. Well, the appointed regime had blinders on again last week--will they never learn?

I doubt that the administration officials handle the day-to-day functions of the military, so it seems kind of silly to blame this on Condaleeza Rice or anyone else at the White House, as it appears you haev done here, Chris. Perhaps I misunderstood your post.

Having said that, I *am* suprised that the military leaders on the groud in Iraq would allow low altitude flights by choppers, given that we apparently know that there are lots of small rockets around.

[RBS]

Rumsfeld isn't serving. So who the hell is he to say anything is necessary? Bush went AWOL for a year. Who the hell is he to send anyone to fight?

[jesus marion joseph]

Originally posted by RBS
Rumsfeld isn't serving. So who the hell is he to say anything is necessary? Bush went AWOL for a year. Who the hell is he to send anyone to fight?

You're an actor. Who the hell are you to have an opinion about politics?

(BTW, I fully support your right to voice an opinion, I'm just gratuitously attacking your rhetoric.)

[Al in NYC]

Part of the problem is that we have stunningly few people there who can speak Arabic, and even fewer who can read it. And when the DOD took over the operation before the war they pushed out all of the State Dept. people in a fit of "kill the messenger" pique, which meant that they also pushed out most of the people with language skills, as well as those with any deeper cultural, historical, and political understanding of the region. Most of the outside language experts that the State Dept. had brought in to have at the ready in anticipation of the post-war needs of U.S. operations were let go, mostly because the DOD folks were openly suspicious of anyone who could speak the language too well! The British military, who did bring along Arabic-speakers, and did give training in the language, have been shocked at the complete lack of language skills on the U.S. side. So, in fact, members of the press are much more likely to be able to understand and read these Arabic warnings, either through their own knowledge of the language or through their local hires & contacts, than is anyone in our military.

[patricia]

Originally posted by Al in NYC
Part of the problem is that we have stunningly few people there who can speak Arabic, and even fewer who can read it. And when the DOD took over the operation before the war they pushed out all of the State Dept. people in a fit of "kill the messenger" pique, which meant that they also pushed out most of the people with language skills, as well as those with any deeper cultural, historical, and political understanding of the region. Most of the outside language experts that the State Dept. had brought in to have at the ready in anticipation of the post-war needs of U.S. operations were let go, mostly because the DOD folks were openly suspicious of anyone who could speak the language too well! The British military, who did bring along Arabic-speakers, and did give training in the language, have been shocked at the complete lack of language skills on the U.S. side. So, in fact, members of the press are much more likely to be able to understand and read these Arabic warnings, either through their own knowledge of the language or through their local hires & contacts, than is anyone in our military.

I agree that the administration erred by not bringing in experts in the culture and mores as well as the language who are Arabic. They are the only logical choice for a window into the little known aspects of the Arabic mindset. Much as those who emigrate to English-speaking countries and learn English as a second language, a non-Arab, even one who is fluent in Arabic, would seem to me to be the less desirable one. One who is absolutely comfortable with the colloquialisms, as well as the culture, would be the better choice.

The tendancy of the administration to tar all Arabs with the same"enemy" brush is actually an impediment to being able to understand the vast amount of communications which are obviously taking place among the resistance to an extended U.S. occupation of Iraq and not necessarily just the terrorists.

[HenryMc]

Rumsfield said these things happen in a war ...but I thought the was was over like months ago ...this is the peaceful reconstructions stage .....and we're talking 'hearts and minds'again ....honey turn this off ..I've seen this movie before and it ends badly

[Monte Smith]

On this one, Chris A. is right. The moment our military intelligence detected any threat against Chinook helicopters, we should have begun ferrying the troops about in Graf Zeppelins. The dead-enders haven't even thought about attacking those yet, I'm sure.

[Monte Smith]

I can make light of anything, Chris. But during that period of time when I thought seriously that my wife was going to be sent with the 47th CSH to Kuwait, the most recurring and troubling image in my mind was of Carm getting in a Chinook and that thing going down. These are great aircraft, but a lot of people die in helicoptors. Jimmy Cantiello will tell you all about that, he's involved in making the magnificent machines and knows a lot about them. The Chinooks, these are the giant twin-rotored machines we carry our troops and equipment around in. Of course they are targets, huge targets; nothing funny about that that isn't also grim and serious.

Shortly after the major combat ended and U.S. forces seized what was Saddam Int'l Airport (before the happy name change), a C-4 transport was shot at by a missile probably exactly like the one that took down the Chinook yesterday. A C-4 is an absolutely huge airplane. That would have been a bigger mess and a bigger tragedy than the Chinook. But nobody should think for an instant that that couldn't happen in Iraq tomorrow, even if it missed lo those many months ago.

And no one should think for a second that there aren't people prepared to fire similar missiles at civilian aircraft coming in to Dulles or LAX or anywhere in this country, too, if they can manage it.

patricia advises us on another thread that the "daily reminder" of Sept. 11 is manipulative. Whatever. I don't get the daily reminder on my government issue 1984-style telescreen that I can't turn off and that watches me as I watch it. This despite the existence of Attorney John Ashcroft. Ha. Nor do I need a daily reminder to remember every day what this is all about and that it isn't funny.

[jesus marion joseph]

Originally posted by Chris A
I think one can blame the White House, the people who picked Bremer for the job. Bush and his mob can't continue to put the blame for every mistake on someone else. Obviously, there was no system set up to look for these kinds of warnings. Damn, flyers distributed and nobody noticed? Having once missed the handwriting on the wall, and with the attacks escalating, with an abundance of ammo and weapons lying around or unaccounted for, it does not take a rocket scientist (sorry) to figure out that vigilance is in order. The White House/Pentagon dodos had better find better dodos to run things in Iraq.[/list]

How would Bremer be in charge of military helicoptor flights? I think you're directing you ire in the wrong direction here, Chris.

[Ron Thorne]

Originally posted by Monte Smith
On this one, Chris A. is right. The moment our military intelligence detected any threat against Chinook helicopters, we should have begun ferrying the troops about in Graf Zeppelins. The dead-enders haven't even thought about attacking those yet, I'm sure.

Sorry, Monte, but once again your penchant for wanting to be cute and quippy got in the way of reality (and credibility) ... even yours as you strove to tell us of your fears for Carm had she be sent with the 47th CSH to Kuwait.

Sadly, none of us have the ability to issue the perfect, self-satisfying retort on every occasion, not even you.

[Ron Thorne]

Bluenoter-

I don't have a clue as to why I see a lot of the stuff I do. I just do. And when it disturbs me, I react, even when it's out of my control, such as line breaks or other technical stuff.

I've deleted my post #16, since it seemed to confuse things greatly. I still stand by everything contained there, but I don't want to add to the confusion of an already stressed BBS.

[Ron Thorne]

Originally posted by jesus marion joseph
You're an actor. Who the hell are you to have an opinion about politics?

(BTW, I fully support your right to voice an opinion, I'm just gratuitously attacking your rhetoric.)

This is the statement to which I made reference earlier, bn. You, of all people, should be able to relate to the fact that not everyone at JC would automatically consider this as humor, satire or tongue-in-cheek commentary.

Did my response confuse the issue that I was responding in-kind?

Oh, never mind. Everything's ok. As I frequently say to my drum students, "don't make it more difficult than it is ... "

[bluenoter]

Ron--I deleted the post that followed the one that you deleted.

[Gary Sisco]

Sadly, Rumsfeld is correct on this one (for the wrong reasons). If you're going to wage war, you're going to take casualties in dead, maimed and wounded. Period. Doesn't matter who you are and there's no way of avoiding it. Particularly in an area of the world where the CIA and Pentagon spent many a year supplying mujahedin with rockets and teaching them how to fire them, accurately, at helicopters, in Afghanistan. Pakistan has been for decades and still is a supermarket of such gear, sold openly, during and since the Russian war. Indeed, some folks got smart and learned how to manufacture their own launchers, by duplicating parts, so all they have to do is buy the rockets themselves, which simply isn't a problem, and they aren't expensive. This ignoring the fact that the Iraqi army(s) doubtless had piles of them, as does every other army or organized irregular force.

Thing about helicopters is exactly what makes them useful: They can fly at low altitudes at slow speeds, and hover in place, and have to, much of the time. Makes them useful pieces of gear. But it also makes them very easy targets, not just for rockets but for small arms. An AK47 or any accurate rifle can drop one with a well-placed round or two. No problem.

And the rockets are easy to learn how to use, also (and can hit faster moving targets as well, as in other aircraft). A lot easier than most would think. Remember the guy Eugene Hasenfus, the CIA contractor who got blown out of the sky over Nicaragua while flying a supply mission from Clinton's Arkansas to Reagan's contra terrorists? (The pilot was killed, Hasenfus captured.) The kid that knocked the plane down was using a shoulder-launched rocket. Boom. He was 16 years old at the time. I met him. A fine, strapping lad, proud as he could be of his prize.

Which by the way also shows that the Nicas, by capturing Hasenfus, had a lot more humanity than I do. I'd have just shot him once in the head and left the both of them there in the wreckage, which would simply have been pillaged for whatever was useful. And then I'd never have said a word about it. Nothing freaks out one's opponent like a mission that goes out but is never heard from again. They simply disappear.

[Clay Fink]

Originally posted by Gary Sisco
I'd have just shot him once in the head and left the both of them there in the wreckage...

It gets me hot when you talk like that, Gary.

[Gary Sisco]

Take a pill, Clay.

[Gary Sisco]

See, this is what happens when journalists get "embedded" in the military. They start writing in bureaucratese. I mean, why can't one just say "bomb" or "mine"? "Improvised explosive device"? Where do they think they are, Philadelphia?

By the way, many forget that the large majority of American casualties in Vietnam were caused by mines, not bullets in firefights. There's more ways than one to skin a cat.

[jesus marion joseph]

Originally posted by Ron Thorne
This is the statement to which I made reference earlier, bn. You, of all people, should be able to relate to the fact that not everyone at JC would automatically consider this as humor, satire or tongue-in-cheek commentary.

Did my response confuse the issue that I was responding in-kind?

Oh, never mind. Everything's ok. As I frequently say to my drum students, "don't make it more difficult than it is ... "

I'm confused. Did I start a verbal war?