Sharon's Outrageous Apartheid Wall

I don't think nearly enough attention has been paid to this outrageous human rights violation. This evening, one of the networks had a feature on a Palestinian village (pop. 300) that is literally locked in every evening, until the following morning. The villagers are, in fact, interned! Children who normally could get to school in 10 minutes now have to spend 3 hours getting there; farmers do not have access to their fields until Israeli soldiers unlock the gate, etc. I am glad some Australians are protesting, but this calls for worldwide outrage (including Israeli participation) against the increasingly fascist Sharon regime, IMO.




Protest rallies against Israel wall

November 9, 2003 - 10:05AM

• Organisers expect thousands of protesters opposed to the construction of an `apartheid' wall in the Middle East to march in rallies across Australia.
  
  Demonstration spokesman Jamal Daoud said the protest was also aimed at highlighting the Australian government's failure to support last months's UN General Assembly resolution calling on Israel to "stop and reverse construction of the wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory".
  
  Israel is currently building a $US1.5 billion ($A2.13 billion) 700km-long barrier through the West Bank which has been under Israeli military occupation since 1967.
  
  Mr Daoud said a report prepared by the World Bank showed the wall had already affected 115,000 Palestinians by cutting them off from water supplies, schools, businesses and farms.
  
  The UN passed a resolution on October 22 this year noting the wall was in contradiction to the relevant provisions of international law.
  
  The resolution was passed by 144 votes to 4 with the USA, Israel, Micronesia and the Marshall Islands voting against it. Australia abstained from voting.
  
  "After the building of this wall there will be no unity of the Palestinian territory and the establishment of a Palestinian state will be near impossible," Mr Daoud said.
  
  The Sydney rally was to begin at 1.00pm (AEDT) outside the Town Hall before marching to the US consulate in Martin Place.
  
  "We chose to march to the US consulate because we believe that USA is playing or can play a major role by pushing Israel to stop the construction of this wall and to restart the peace process," Mr Daoud said.
  
  Similar action is planned for Melbourne, Perth, Brisbane and Canberra with representatives from government and the Palestinian delegation to Australia expected to give speeches.

Australian Broadcasting Corporation

LATELINE

Late night news & current affairs

TV PROGRAM TRANSCRIPT

LOCATION: abc.net.au > Lateline > Archives
URL: http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2003/s983032.htm

Broadcast: 05/11/2003

Author says security wall will destroy Mid East peace process

• Pulitzer Prize winning New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman's latest book is "Longtitudes and Attitudes - The World in the Age of Terrorism". He says Israel's new security wall will destroy any possiblity of the two-state solution at the core of the peace process in the Middle East. He has also made a detailed analysis of America's war in Iraq.
  
  Compere: Tony Jones
  Reporter: Tony Jones
  
  TONY JONES: Now to our interview with the Pulitzer prize winning New York Timescolumnist Thomas Friedman.
  
  His latest book is 'Longitudes and Attitudes, the World in the Age of Terrorism'.
  
  I spoke to him about US policy in the Middle East, and his assessment that Israel's new security wall will destroy any possibility of the 2-state solution at the core of the peace process.
  
  But Mr Friedman has also made a detailed analysis of America's war in Iraq, and we began with that when I spoke to him earlier in Washington.
  
  Thomas Friedman, thanks for joining us.
  
  THOMAS FRIEDMAN, 'NEW YORK TIMES': Great to be with you, Tony.
  
  TONY JONES: Before the war, you described President Bush's decision to invade as: "The greatest shake of the dice that any president has voluntarily engaged in since Harry Truman dropped the bomb on Japan."
  
  Is the jury still out, do you think, as to whether he has gambled and lost?
  
  THOMAS FRIEDMAN: Yes, I think the jury is still out, Tony.
  
  The point I tried to make is that this is an incredibly audacious project, the United States going half a world away to try to install democracy in Iraq and unseat a terrible dictator there.
  
  It's an incredibly audacious project.
  
  What I called for before the war is that, if the President is going to undertake something this audacious, this revolutionary, he needs to accompany it with audacious domestic and international policies.
  
  That is, he needs to do it with as broad a coalition and as much legitimacy as possible.
  
  He needs to do it with an American public that is behind it and ready to sacrifice for it.
  
  What's been most disappointing to me is the way Bush's reach has exceeded his grasp.
  
  TONY JONES: What do you think of the proposition then that if there was no legitimate argument for starting this war as part of the war on terrorism, it has in fact become a self-fulfilling prophecy - the war on terrorism is now there in Iraq?
  
  THOMAS FRIEDMAN: It is true.
  
  Basically, I believe and have written, "This is the big one."
  
  At root, when you peal everything else away, what it has always been about for me is can we create a space in the heart of the Arab and Muslim world where people can engage in progressive forward-looking politics for which I believe there is a huge constituency in that part of the world.
  
  People say there is freedom of speech in the Arab world - that's true.
  
  The problem is there is no freedom after speech.
  
  Until and unless you have a place in the very heart of that world where people are free to think thoughts, to think about a different kind of future and to design that future in freedom, you're really not going to get the change that that neighbourhood so badly needs and so badly craves.
  
  So this is the big one because the bad guys there understand that if we, the progressives in the West, win in Iraq and are able to install a progressive forward-looking decent government in the very heart of that world - one with a balanced relationship between religion and state, one which empowers women and gives Iraqis the opportunity really to create their own future.
  
  If we can do that, it has going to have a huge resonance throughout the neighbourhood.
  
  If we can stop it in Iraq, they can stop it everywhere.
  
  TONY JONES: Who are the bad guys in this case, as you put it?
  
  You mentioned Al Qaeda-like characters, has Al Qaeda now seen the chance for a genuine Jihad in an Arab country occupied by American forces and joined in a way with the old Ba'athists, with Saddam Hussein, indeed, who is still apparently underground.
  
  THOMAS FRIEDMAN: I think there are three broad groups of people we are up against - we are up against Saddam's people, who basically melted away during the war and who are now trying to make a comeback.
  
  And they know just what they want - they want to drive us out in the hopes that they can restore not Iraqi sovereignty, they want to restore Ba'athist privilege.
  
  We are up against not Iraqi nationalists, we are up against a Sunni affirmative action movement.
  
  That is who these Ba'athists represent.
  
  That is who we are up against - number one.
  
  Number two, we are up against Al Qaeda like, people who think that way, who think that it is a global Jihad and that this is a chance to defeat the United States.
  
  We're also up against, I think, Syrian agents and maybe a few Iranian agents who understand that, if America is kept busy in Iraq, it will not turn its reformist attention on Iran or Syria.
  
  I think they're all jumbled up in that kind of mix.
  
  TONY JONES: How do you defeat them?
  
  Obviously, as the occupation continues, more Jihadis come into Iraq.
  
  The Ba'athists, the people underground who are having success in killing a lot of American troops on the ground, will expand their operations, won't they, rather than contract them?
  
  THOMAS FRIEDMAN: Well, there is only really one way to defeat them and that is to destroy them militarily and to destroy them politically.
  
  To destroy them militarily we need an internal Iraqi military force that is strong enough and willing enough to go into these towns and villages to find these people.
  
  We in the United States, a bunch of non-Arabic speaking Americans, are not going to do it.
  
  To get that Iraqi force though, what we need is something more important, we need a legitimate Iraqi government.
  
  You know, people will not protect what they don't feel they own.
  
  So you see Iraqi police on the street, you see even Iraqi soldiers, but they're not really not connected to any government.
  
  And until and unless Iraqis feel that they own Iraq, that this is their country, they're not going to protect it.
  
  I am a big believer in former Treasury secretary Laurie Summers' fundamental dictum, "It's my 11th commandment."
  
  The 11th commandment, he says, is this, "In the history of the world, no-one has ever washed a rented car."
  
  OK, always remember that.
  
  And Iraqis have been renting their country.
  
  Until they have ownership over it, they won't protect it.
  
  And until they're really ready to fight and die for it, we cannot defeat the bad guys.
  
  TONY JONES: Thomas Friedman, are we right in thinking that the Americans have been much too slow in forming this legitimate Iraqi Government?
  
  We keep hearing from inside the present sort of set-up that they have now, which is not a legitimate government at this stage but an American-appointed government, we hear people crying out for this Iraqi security force to be set up and we hear from them that the Americans are blocking it and it has been blocked in Washington by internal politics.
  
  THOMAS FRIEDMAN: We have been much too slow.
  
  It goes back to the original and core utter and criminal incompetence of the Bush Pentagon in managing the post-war.
  
  They had no clear plan because they had no clear understanding of Iraq, and we're continuing to pay the price for that.
  
  I do believe they're learning.
  
  I do believe in the end they will learn and I do believe in the end we will learn everything the hard way.
  
  TONY JONES: How though will the American public take this over time?
  
  We are already - you say it's not Vietnam and I am sure you are right about that - but we are seeing Vietnam-like television moments.
  
  For example, only a few days ago, 15 American soldiers shot down in a chopper, cut to the mash tent where the wounded soldiers are being stitched back.
  
  And one of the doctors looks up from what he's doing, with bloody hands, and he turns to the camera and says, "All major combat operations have ceased - yeah right," you know, in this perfect ironic tone.
  
  Now that sort of thing must really strike home in middle America.
  
  THOMAS FRIEDMAN: There is no question people are worried about it and they're concerned.
  
  There is a lot of anxiety out there.
  
  I can't tell you when that will reach a critical mass that will call for the troops to come home, but we're not there yet.
  
  At some gut core level people get this war.
  
  Forget all the WMD, all the other arguments, what they get is that we went half a world away to unseat a really bad guy who was doing really bad things in a neighbourhood that is going in a really bad direction.
  
  And we have to give our best effort to try to partner with people there to turn it around.
  
  TONY JONES: Alright, let's go back if we can, as I said we would, to what you said before the war - the advice, if you like, that you actually gave to the White House.
  
  Now you suggested I think in one of your articles that the attitude of the Bush team could best be summed up by the phrase "We're at war, let's party."
  
  What did you mean by that?
  
  THOMAS FRIEDMAN: I meant then and I mean now that the President wants to fight this war without anyone in America sacrificing anything except the soldiers, the reservists and their families.
  
  We're at war, let's party and let's have a tax cut.
  
  We're at war, let's party, let's not pass any new standards for reducing gas mileage so we'll consume less gasoline and therefore be sending less money to Saudi Arabia to give to Ahabi fanatics to build Madrassas in Pakistan.
  
  We're at war, let's party, let's be nice and alone and not have to make any compromises with anyone else in the world or at the UN.
  
  We're at war, let's party, let's not have a Manhattan project for energy independence.
  
  Throughout this war, from the very beginning, Bush has refused to call for any sacrifice on the American people.
  
  It is morally, deeply unserious and you cannot win a war this audacious and this big alone, without financial sacrifice of the American people, without the material sacrifice of the American people, without sacrificing in order to get allies around the globe.
  
  And that's what worries me most.
  
  TONY JONES: Meanwhile, the Palestinian-Israeli conflict continues.
  
  It gets worse and worse, and it's creating, if anything, more distrust of Washington and American foreign policy.
  
  On this, you said that Bush needed to sever all links with Yasser Arafat and threatened to cut economic aid to Israel unless Ariel Sharon immediately stopped building settlements.
  
  Well, neither of these things have happened.
  
  They have gone for a compromise in the middle on both of those issues.
  
  What has been the result?
  
  THOMAS FRIEDMAN: The result has been more of the same, which is a kind of human meat grinder.
  
  Sharon and Arafat are like the two wheels of this meat grinder and it is just grinding people up.
  
  I believe we have to tell the truth to Palestinians and President Bush has been very good about that.
  
  And the truth is that Yasser Arafat is their disaster.
  
  And he has led them down a disastrous path.
  
  And in the absence of any leadership, this kind of suicide terrorism that has arisen among Palestinians is utter and complete madness.
  
  And you cannot build a modern state on the back of suicide.
  
  It is complete madness - unjustifiable in any terms.
  
  But what is also completely insane is for Israel to continue to try to expand settlements in the heart of Palestinian populated areas and to pursue a diplomatic strategy that says, "Until there is complete silence, complete peace and quiet on the Palestinian side, we aren't going to negotiate anything.
  
  We are not going to try to produce a political solution, a strategy that only empowers the worst terrorists and fanatics on the other side to make sure there is no silence."
  
  We've told the truth to the Palestinians, we won't tell the truth to the Israelis.
  
  We are completely on the sidelines and, as a result, the thing is just drifting and drifting.
  
  That is why you see the emergence among Israelis and Palestinian of this kind of automatic diplomacy, Israelis and Palestinians getting together on their own to try to forge peace agreements - not that they would be binding but that would be symbolic in trying to stimulate their governments to do the same.
  
  TONY JONES: Finally, Thomas Friedman, I would like to look at the future of that conflict just briefly through the microscope, if you like, of a column you wrote recently about the security wall that the Israelis are now building and the possible unintended consequences of that security wall in terms of what we now believe will inevitably be a 2-state solution.
  
  You think the security wall could destroy the whole idea of a 2-state solution.
  
  Tell us why?
  
  THOMAS FRIEDMAN: Well, I think this wall could be the first wall that instead of producing two states produces one.
  
  And the reason is twofold - first of all, the wall is not running along any either the defined border, all of the 67 lines, or even the proposed border, all of the Clinton lines.
  
  Secondly, when you build a wall and you have Jews on both sides of the wall, Israeli citizens on the one side, Israeli settler citizens on the other, what it means is that you don't just have a wall, you have a wall and then you have a set of mini walls on the other side to protect the settlers over there.
  
  When you build mini walls on the other side of the big wall what you're actually doing is building cages for Palestinians.
  
  These cages will become factories of despair that will disconnect Palestinians from one another and from their own crumbling authority.
  
  As that happens, I believe the Palestinians are going to look at the settlers living next door and say, "What do they have?
  
  They have rule of law, they have social security, they have medical care, they have a government and they have a vote.
  
  Forget about the Palestinian state, it is not going to happen.
  
  I want what the Jews have."
  
  And therefore over time what the wall will produce is a move among Palestinians to say, "Forget about the 2-state solution, it is not going to happen."
  
  We're all chopped up now anyways."
  
  I want a 1-state solution, I want one man, one vote.
  
  Since in the next 10 years there will be more Palestinians than Jews living in the area of Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, eventually we will vote them out."
  
  Of course that is not going to happen.
  
  Israel is not going to allow one man one vote.
  
  But I believe the move by Palestinians from the strategy of Arafat to the strategy of Mandela will prove enormously problematic for Israel and all its Jewish friends and supporters around the world from Alabama to Australia.
  
  TONY JONES: Thomas Friedman, it's fascinating to talk to you again.
  
  We thank you very much for taking the time to talk to us here on Lateline.
  
  THOMAS FRIEDMAN: Pleasure.
  
  It's always great to be on Lateline and thank you, Tony.

Anger and Tears at Israel's Wall of Apartheid

The Wound Which Has Slashed Palestine to the Bone

by ANNE GWYNNE

• Nablus. Today the attempt to murder, destroy and to break the will of the people of this Mountain of Fire--Jabal An'nar--has escalated to an intolerable level, though we expect it to get much worse. Our lovely mountains are ringed with fire as in the past millennia, but now it is the bright searchlights and floods of the Israeli illegal settlements and their military camps which light up the night sky. We are completely encircled by them, and with their powerful American weapons they can see any one of us at any time and shoot us dead. And they do.
  
  My intention today was to go to Jenin with Munt'ser, who has had to wait nearly two weeks to start his new job there as the UPMRC Ambulance driver. The income is badly needed because their father was murdered by the Israelis in April so Munt'ser is alone, responsible for the four younger brothers and sisters in Jenin. He has never had a job--the unemployment here is over 80%--and it will take him one year to pay the rent, electricity and water owing since the Israeli destruction in April 2002. The sum is not great, some 700 US dollars, but it is more than his salary for a year. The closures have now intensified and the roads are closed to EVERYONE, not just men and women under 35 years. So we wait.
  
  But we are hoping the Mobile clinic will get through to Qalqilya--a city of some 30,000 people, set gloriously across many hills and sweeping down into fertile vales. We leave at 8.00 am with the Women's Clinic. The dangerous road out of Nablus is via the horrible Beit Iba checkpoint and via many jeep-and tank-points along the short way. It is clear that something sinister is afoot in Nablus today. At Beit Iba there are five Ambulances on either side and more arrive by the minute. The aggression shown by the soldiers is alarming. So we wait. I call another UPMRC driver, Feras--"Where are you now?" And the reply? "I am at Beit Iba checkpoint--where are you?" "Look in your mirror", I say--and a few brief, light moments! The driver, Ry'ad, wants to know the English words to describe the seemingly-undriveable surface upon which we are travelling and I realize there aren't any--this has surely never existed anywhere on earth before, but perhaps on the moon.
  
  
  
  Then--a metalled (paved) road! But not for Palestine--it is for the huge number of illegal villages (dishonestly called 'settlements') which are now absolutely everywhere: Kefar Save, Ari'el, Qarne Shamron, Indumin, Korne, Ma'ale Shamron, Sheken, Ac'ale Shamron, Qedamiun, Homesh, Enav, Avne Hefez--to name but a few. These are huge areas of illegal occupation, taking Palestinian land for their building and, of course, rendering the rest of the land unusable by the farmers who have tilled it for thousands of years--because the illegal immigrants (cosily called 'settlers' by the US and Israel) shoot at them if they enter their fields. As if this were not enough, extensive areas along the road have been taken to build shopping centres and industrial parks, closed to Palestinians. The town of Azdun is now completely ringed with these illegals, and has only one entry which is, naturally, a checkpoint. 18,000 people have lost all of their livelihood and land. All signs are in Hebrew as, effectively, this area is now Israel. Checkpoints literally appear from nowhere--jeeps simply pulling out of junctions with 5 or 6 soldiers brandishing machine-guns jumping out and stopping everyone.
  
  This is an area of outstanding natural beauty--the roof of Palestine--of the most self-effacing greens I have ever seen in a landscape, interspersed with the darker tones of cypresses, the delicate pinks of cherries in flower, red roses growing wild, and fragrant wild thyme and sage--the prized "Marra Mia" of Palestine, named for Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ. As we ride along this scenic road, I can see three things I have not seen before: Israel, which is 5 km away from these hills, the Mediterranean Sea, which washes the shores of Europe, 20 km to the West, and a livid scar stretching as far as the eye can see that slashes its way up hill and down dale like the work of some crazy knife-man. This is the foundation of THE WALL--a monstrous creation, born out of a collective delusional paranoia plus greed for Palestinian land. Of course we cannot stop to take a picture of the amazing views because this is not allowed! I will photograph the wall and touch it later.
  
  Finally, after three hours, we reach Qalqilya (only some 30 km from Nablus), a gracious city with wide, tree-lined boulevards and large white buildings, hospitals and schools. Amongst the palms and tree-ferns of the main boulevard from the east the shops are almost all boarded-up and the whole area is deserted. The clinic is modern and welcoming, warm and well-equipped. The women have many health problems here--pre-eclampsia, anaemia, chronic candida infections, bacterial infections of the uterus, vagina and urinary tract. Even when the Clinic is allowed through, the unemployment rate of over 80% means that treatments cannot be afforded. In this 'difficult situation', as my friends so understate it, all the women are perfectly presented--no mean feat when there is no water for most of the time and little electricity.
  

The Wall

• I first saw THE WALL today on a warm, sunny morning, with the blue of the sky matched by the blue of the Mediterranean Sea (on whose shores millions of Europeans holiday each year). I approached this outrageous insanity through a lake of sewage which the construction has dammed up, and through whose sticky mud it was almost impossible to stay upright.
  
  I am sick, my heart is aching and I am very, very angry. Nothing can describe what is happening here. Someone of you out there may be able to create a new word--let me know if you do. Television pictures do not do it justice.
  
  This wall, built entirely upon Palestinian land with no compensation of any kind, will be over 300 miles long, 8 meters in height above its base (which is 2m above and 2m below ground level), and, I'm told, 40 meters in width. It has already consumed more than 10% of Palestine's most fertile and productive agricultural land. It does not follow the so-called Green Line for most of its length, cutting off villages and towns in a no-man's land between Israel and Palestine to which there is no entry and from which there is no exit. Around the city of Qalqilya the wall will curve in a circle, with only one gate for entering and exiting this city of 30,000 souls. As with the 'settlements', aesthetic sense is completely absent. The utilitarian ugliness of the huge sheets of unrelieved steel is, perhaps, unparalleled. The wall will be honeycombed underneath with a network of tunnels and double tunnels which will allow Israeli incursions at any time; in addition, it will be festooned with tons of razor wire and broken by gun-emplacements every 100 meters. In Qalqilya, two of these point into the primary school. There will be a wide area on either side which will be 'unused' land so that imaginary Palestinians can be easily seen.
  
  Behind the wall is a high sandy hill which commands the whole area. Prior to the wall, Israeli tanks would fire shells into the city from this hill, many of them falling around and into the school. Many children have had to leave because of nervous breakdowns, and others are suffering from stress-related illnesses. They have terrified nightmares, and bed-wetting and sleep disorders are common. Between the school and the wall is about 300 meters of devastated ground used as a base for the construction.
  
  As you gaze across these beautiful, rolling hills clothed in diaphanous greens, this monstrosity snakes across the landscape, a 500m wide wound which has slashed Palestine to the bone, standing stark and livid, bisecting the naturally unified landscape. It cuts off a family from its members, farmers from the land, neighbour from neighbour and village from village. So not only is 10% of the country's fertile land lost, but much, much more cannot be reached by its rightful owners--condemning the farmers to a lifetime of poverty, with the land they have tilled for thousands of years within sight of their homes, and untouchable.
  
  Our Governments are not only allowing this to happen--they are paying the astronomical cost of this madness. I knew the statistics of the wall, but to actually touch it and photograph it--that really is something else. A 300 mile-plus wall to keep out an occasional heroic act for freedom? No, this wall is designed to make life here, already intolerable, even more so, in the belief that the remaining Palestinians will be forced through hunger and poverty to leave. The insanity of it is mind-blowing.
  
  I look on this insane manifestation of Israel's hatred of Palestinians, their collective delusional paranoia that they 'will all be killed', and their insatiable greed for Palestinian land. As I stand in the shadow of this preposterous edifice, whose concrete base is taller than I am, a scream arises in the depths of my being; a scream so big that it consumes me completely, so that there is no room for breath and my heart is bursting--a scream that I want to be heard in London and Washington and New York. But it cannot escape for it is too big for my throat. And I weep bitter tears for the loss of the life of Palestine.

[bluenoter]

#3--CounterPunch, March 15, 2003

[Salvador Dali Lama]

you should check out haaretz and the other israeli newspapers. they should have some very good op/ed peices about this.

[BFrank]

From the president's web site:

President Bush Participates in the Red Sea Summit

President Bush is committed to the goal of achieving peace in the Middle East. On June 3, 2003, President Bush met with Arab leaders who are also committed to and an integral part of the peace process. In Aqaba, Jordan on June 4, 2003, President Bush held a trilateral meeting with Prime Minister Sharon of Israel and Prime Minister Abbas of the Palestinian Authority. This meeting marked important progress towards the goal of a peaceful Middle East.

The Middle East roadmap makes clear that all sides must make tangible immediate steps towards this two-state vision, and President Bush said the United States will continue to strive to see that the commitments of all parties are fulfilled. The President has asked Secretary of State Colin Powell, and National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice to make this cause a matter of the highest priority.

>>> I guess the Israeli/Palestinian problem got sort of lost in the mix. What else is new?

From

Fence of folly

• The separation fence should bring residents of Israel security by blocking the way for terrorists plotting to cross the Green Line and commit murder in the country's cities. But the purpose of the fence has been lost in its planning and construction. From the start, the government rebutted right-wing critics who argued that the fence would have political significance. Now in retrospect it turns out that the planners gave up on pure security considerations as they worked to make the fence unequivocally political.
  
  That's what happened to the main section of the fence, opposite Ariel, where the planners meanwhile have left "openings," to avoid provoking the Americans, with the clear intention of eventually surrounding the settlements in the area, despite the resultant annexation of Palestinian communities in thesame area.
  
  The same is even more true of the southern parts of the fence, which according to yesterday's report by Haaretz correspondent Amos Harel, will encompass the entire Adumim area east of Jerusalem, all the way to the outskirts of Jericho. According to the report, the plan worked out in the defense establishment has already been given Prime Minister Ariel
  Sharon's blessing. The city of Ma'ale Adumim is essentially annexed to a greater Jerusalem, and with it Palestinian communities that are not inside Jerusalem's jurisdiction.
  
  There are also northern stretches of the fence that imprison Palestinians in enclaves between it and the Green Line, cutting off villagers from their fields, and sometimes, as in the case of Qalqiliyah, encircling an entire community. In some parts of the fence called "the Jerusalem envelope," the fence has damaged the fabric of Palestinian life intolerably, and even incomprehensibly.
  
  Along most of the route around Jerusalem the fence will separate--or has already separated--not Palestinians from Israelis but Palestinians from Palestinians. The daily lives of hundreds of thousands of people, including tens of thousands of Palestinian residents of Jerusalem proper, will be ripped apart by the fence, becoming an endless series of interruptions and delays. In addition to the humanitarian damage, the fence on that route will incite hostility among Palestinians who have been quiet for most of the intifada years.
  
  But the distortion and blindness of the planned route of the Jerusalem "envelope" isn't merely the direct suffering that will be caused to the Palestinian population living inside the city and around it. The massive departures from the municipal boundaries eastward, to Wadi Ket and the Allon Road, clearly means cutting the West bank in two. Not only East Jerusalem will be cut off by the fence from its natural Palestinian hinterland, but Jerusalem itself will cut off the northern West Bank from the southern part of the area.
  
  A trip from Ramallah to Bethlehem, a half hour's drive without a fence, will go through Jericho. This is not merely about convenience, but about the territorial contiguity of the future Palestinian state, therefore the very viability of that state. Under the guise of granting security to Israel, the prime minister apparently means to implement in stages his anachronistic vision of a carved-up patchwork Palestinian state. Hopefully, he will come to his senses and retreat from this foolish plan.

[GregM]

The security wall separating Gaza from Israel has been 100% effective. Zero terrorists have crossed that barrier during the three years of the so-called "intifada". If such a barrier had existed in the West Bank it would have saved hundreds of lives. Build it!

[Salvador Dali Lama]

the west bank is an entirely different can of worms than gaza.

I think it would be a major, major mistake to build this wall. It would be really hard for anyone to say "Israel are the good guys!" after the wall is built. You can't punish an entire group of people for the actions of a few. Disagree with them on many things as I might, Palestenians are people after all. and if you want them to ACT like people (ie. not blowing themselves up), you have to treat them like people.

I like what friedman said about sharon and arafat being a meat grinder. you have to protect yourself, this is true, but at the end of the day you can't kill people to prove that killing is wrong.

[GregM]

Is that you, BW?

You can't punish an entire group of people for the actions of a few. Disagree with them on many things as I might, Palestenians are people after all. and if you want them to ACT like people (ie. not blowing themselves up), you have to treat them like people.

The Palestinians are treated horribly and screwed by their own leadership regardless of Israel's actions. Furthermore, I don't buy the idea that Islamic terrorism is based on how the supposed "infidels" treat Muslims. It's directly proportional to the religious intolerance, hatred and lies these Muslims learn as children, engrained in their upbringing and education, whether in Gaza, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Chechnya, Indonesia or wherever Islamic extremists may be.

I like what friedman said about sharon and arafat being a meat grinder. you have to protect yourself, this is true, but at the end of the day you can't kill people to prove that killing is wrong.

Sharon is building a security fence that will save lives, not end lives. You can like whatever article you want, but it will take action to make the region more secure, not whiny, critical articles.

Be forewarned, people...

• There goes the neighborhood! This is Mr. Contrarian, the guy who was kicked off Organissimo. It restored civility and made a very big, positive difference. Sure, he's been fairly civil on this his first Corner day, but wait until he starts calling names and arguing for the sake of controversy. You think Scott is bad? Well, he is, but he's a pussycat compared to Greg Maltz.

[GregM]

Uh. . .thanks for the "intro" Albertson, but I've been posting here since August.

Commendable--perhaps you did learn something. Why, you are even addressing me by my real name rather than a childish derogatory one borrowed from Heaney. I'd call that progress.

Sometimes one is glad to be wrong.

[Monte Smith]

Maybe we should build a wall around the "bad" posters, huh, Mr. Sunshine?

Don't feel hypocritical. It's a natural reaction.

Oh, and maybe you can find a Reagan impersonator to tear it down! You do believe that Reagan tore down the Berlin wall, don't you? I mean, that's what you are supposed to believe, so I'm sure you do.

You might wish to address the subject of this thread, or have you nothing of substance to contribute?

[Monte Smith]

You're doing a fair Reagan impersonation right here, Mr. Sunshine. True, it's Bizarro Reagan, but I'll leave you to it.

This is Mr. Contrarian, the guy who was kicked off Organissimo. It restored civility and made a very big, positive difference.

Why? Because it restored the other site to some goddamn left wing lovefest?

Face your opposition Mr. Albertson. Your fairy tale days are numbered.

GregM, hope you're the real deal my friend, we need more rational voices here.


signed,


Pussycat

A sense of balance.

Yes, yes........................

Thats what I'm feeling...............

[Clay Fink]

I think the Palistinians and Israelis need to sit down and work out their differences like good Christians.

Scott, your asinine remarks have no basis in reasoned thought--you are acting like a child. Surely you can vent your disagreements with me without siding with a known fact molester.

[Monte Smith]

Originally posted by Clay Fink
I think the Palistinians and Israelis need to sit down and work out their differences like good Christians.

Amen.

Originally posted by Clay Fink
I think the Palistinians and Israelis need to sit down and work out their differences like good Christians.

• If one is not good, can one qualify as a Christian? Can someone who has done as much harm to others as...say, Bush, be a Christian, other than in name? Is it possible that all the world's true Christians could board a cruise ship without violating capacity limits?

Just curious.

[Monte Smith]

Originally posted by Chris A

• If one is not good, can one qualify as a Christian? Can someone who has done as much harm to others as...say, Bush, be a Christian, other than in name? Is it possible that all the world's true Christians could board a cruise ship without violating capacity limits?

Just curious.

I don't know. But apropos of that, here is the 1984 Trinity Christian College volleyball team:



Catch the spirit!

[Paul B]

I believe it was a British statesman that referred to Israel as a "shitty little country." Truer words have not been spoken.

Sharon just building a wall to "save lives?" Well, yes, I guess after decades of provoking a people whose land you've stolen, you may well need some protection of your own. But it goes nicely with Israel's policy of taking more and more land. One wonders why they just don't build concentration camps for the Palestinians and take the whole pie.

What a disgusting country, and a pathetic people.

Bye-ya.

[Monte Smith]

Nice.

Scott, your asinine remarks have no basis in reasoned thought--you are acting like a child. Surely you can vent your disagreements with me without siding with a known fact molester.

My, aren't we just so sensitive this morning...............

[Noj]

The Pro-Israelis have their views, the Pro-Palestinians have their views, and never the 'tween shall meet. The facts are disputed, morality is shit-canned, and humanity suffers. I've yet to read a reasonable discussion of the facts. It really sickens me, and I tire of trying to get the story straight. I just wish they'd stop killing each other and behave like civilized people. Such a stupid, endless cycle of murder and for what? Has any of it done anyone any good? What a waste of time and lives.

To think these people think of themselves as religious. Hypocrites.

[Gentle Giant]

Originally posted by Paul B
I believe it was a British statesman that referred to Israel as a "shitty little country." Truer words have not been spoken.

Sharon just building a wall to "save lives?" Well, yes, I guess after decades of provoking a people whose land you've stolen, you may well need some protection of your own. But it goes nicely with Israel's policy of taking more and more land. One wonders why they just don't build concentration camps for the Palestinians and take the whole pie.

What a disgusting country, and a pathetic people.

Bye-ya.

Aside from the fact that this post shows you to be a vicious and idiotic douchebag, I don't think you can find an independent nation in world history that has had to give up more of its land (can you say Sinai fucking desert?) than Israel has. I certainly don't agree with either the wall or the settlements, but it's your sanity that has gone bye-ya, Paul (pall).

[Tanager]

Originally posted by Noj
I've yet to read a reasonable discussion of the facts.

What? Are you implying that the back-and-forth on this thread is anything less than reasonable and grounded in fact? Egads, man, you can't be serious!

[GregM]

Noj is simply too lazy to seek out a discussion of the facts so he indulges in moral equivalency, the basest form of ignorance among pseudo intellectuals. But at least he's not an outright Jew-hater like Paul.