Kasparov vs. X3D Fritz

Enforcer · November-16th-2003, 09:07 PM

Match is tied at 1.5/1.5. After drawing the first game, Kasparov blundered in a good position with black under time pressure and lost. Today, he beat the machine like a child in a closed game. That leaves one game to decide the match.

Good stuff so far. The games have been covered a little on ESPN2 and the analysis by GMs Seirawan and Ashley is pretty entertaining. Final game on Tuesday.

Larry

bobetterblues · November-16th-2003, 10:08 PM

What ever happened to Bobby Fischer?

Enforcer · November-16th-2003, 10:59 PM

Bo,

Bobby Fischer is a certified crazy person. He's in exile from the United States and has been for about 10 years now. He played a chess match against Boris Spassky in 1992 that violated U.S. sanctions against Yugoslavia. That's only a drop in the bucket, though. He has been giving radio interviews to a station in the Phillipines over the past few years, in which he attacks the world "jewry" that he blames for pretty much everything wrong in the world (he's jewish, by the way). He also vigorously supported the 9/11 attacks, citing the need for someone to "f**k the U.S."

The truth is that Fischer has been crazy for as long as he's played chess. He was nuts back in the 60s and 70s, too. People forgave him then and his paranoia was tolerated in light of his genius. Nobody is going to forgive that sh** anymore, though.

Larry

frankiepop · November-16th-2003, 11:15 PM

larry is the game going to be televised on the web do u know? i looked at the site and didnt find any indication either way. i suppose that means only on tv.

Enforcer · November-16th-2003, 11:23 PM

fp,

The official site is www dot x3d dot com and I don't believe there is a video feed. However, you can watch the moves and live commentary on the virtual game player they have. Kaspy does not see an actual board, he has to wear 3d glasses. He's not moving actual pieces, he's speaking the moves and the computer generated 3d image of the board reflects the players' moves. Kind of gimmicky, but hey, it's tough to sell chess to the ESPN crowd. Ashley likes to make sports references to football and such, which actually is a pretty good way to approach it.

Larry

bobetterblues · November-17th-2003, 02:08 AM

Quote:

He's in exile from the United States and has been for about 10 years now

Why is that?

Quote:

He played a chess match against Boris Spassky in 1992 that violated U.S. sanctions against Yugoslavia.

Oooooow. How dare he!!!!

Quote:

He also vigorously supported the 9/11 attacks, citing the need for someone to "f**k the U.S."

He's not the only one who feels that way, and some of those people aren't even crazy!

Quote:

The truth is that Fischer has been crazy for as long as he's played chess. He was nuts back in the 60s and 70s, too. People forgave him then and his paranoia was tolerated in light of his genius. Nobody is going to forgive that sh** anymore, though.

Now, did chess contribute to his craziness? Kind of like David what's his name the piano player? from the movie Shine?

And I take it you and most people don't have any tolerance for the mentally ill?

Just keeping it real,

Bo

mke · November-17th-2003, 02:27 AM

The whole "playing wih 3d glasses on" is completely ridiculous. They should have the computer play on a real board with one of those robotic arms they have at fairgrounds (the ones you move around a bit, then press on a button to make it descend, the "fingers" clasp on the teddy bear, only to have it fall off before making it to you).

moneyp · November-17th-2003, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Larry Nagel
Match is tied at 1.5/1.5. After drawing the first game, Kasparov blundered in a good position with black under time pressure and lost. Today, he beat the machine like a child in a closed game. That leaves one game to decide the match.

Good stuff so far. The games have been covered a little on ESPN2 and the analysis by GMs Seirawan and Ashley is pretty entertaining. Final game on Tuesday.

Larry

Cool! Any web info on this?

mke · November-17th-2003, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Larry Nagel
fp,

The official site is www dot x3d dot com

moneyp · November-17th-2003, 03:38 AM

Thanks, Mwanji. You know me, always two moves behind.

Gordon B · November-17th-2003, 07:44 AM

bo,
I recommend you look up the thread named "fischer random chess."

Enforcer · November-17th-2003, 09:26 AM

Bo,

Are you some kind of stupid motherf**ker? Clarify some sh** for me before we even consider getting back on the topic of discussion. I don't give a f**k about your politics. I'm not especially inclined to even discuss that sh** around here. On the other hand, you've just asserted in a most disturbing way that people who support the 9/11 attacks are not crazy. Well, perhaps not crazy, but certainly not worthy of any kind of defense.

So do me a favor, and give me a chance to post a link to some of the Fischer radio interviews. Of particular interest is the one dating 9/11. You're speaking to a guy who majored in psychology back in college (back in the 1920s or something), so don't lecture me about the "mentally ill." That's not what I mean by "crazy." I'm talking about a man who is so filled with hate that he heartily endorses mass execution of Americans. If that doesn't offend you in any way, maybe you should grow a f**king heart and a brain.

How's that for keeping it real, mothef**ker?

Enjoy!

http://home.att.ne.jp/moon/fischer/

Forcing mate in 3 moves,
Larry

Brian Olewnick · November-17th-2003, 09:35 AM

Chess mavens: any recs on a decent chess program site on the web? I've found one at http://pine.cs.yale.edu/java/chess/html which (pitiful player that I am) beats me about 3 out of 4 times. Wondering if there's a better one out there where, for example, you can choose games by opening, etc. Thanks.

Enforcer · November-17th-2003, 09:51 AM

Brian,

I couldn't follow that link, but I've seen a few of those types of sites before. Those programs are usually pretty basic (though some are pretty strong) with minimal features. If you go to chessclub.com and download the interface, you can connect to the Internet Chess Club as a guest for free. There are usually game offers you can click on to face a few different computer programs. Also, the US ChessLive site (don't remember the website) can take you to their software and you can play some machines there in the same fashion. Those programs vary in strength from Grandmaster level to weak amateur. In both of those cases, you're connecting to a server, so you're not actually interfacing via a web page.

If you want to spend money, of course, the options increase exponentially. There is amazing chess software out now. Incredible the things you can do with it.

Larry

Brian Olewnick · November-17th-2003, 09:54 AM

Thanks, Larry. I'll check them out. I could, of course, buy a program, but I'd rather deal with a net-based program so I can play at work!

Squaredancecalling Steve · November-17th-2003, 11:17 AM

Brian: Here's the one I use, which runs about $20. I think it may be for Macs only, though.

http://www.schubert-it.com/vektor3/

But do try Larry's suggestion of playing as a guest on ICC. I tend to play guests when I'm waking up or falling asleep, because those games aren't rated.

Enforcer · November-18th-2003, 03:18 PM

Well, the match ends in a tie. Kasparov draws with the black pieces today to finish the match with a 2-2 score. Pretty interesting games. It goes to show that things haven't changed much in games between humans and computers. Humans still cannot afford to make anything resembling a tactical error or else be brutally punished by the machines. At the same time, it proves that machines can't play chess at all, they just do striking imitations of real chess players. When forced into strategic positions, they are clueless. As the Fritz team said after the loss in game 3, "We know exactly what the problem is and it's nothing new. But we don't know how to fix it." Not a direct quote, but I paraphrased it.

All in all an entertaining match. Hopefully we get another one soon.

Larry

Squaredancecalling Steve · November-18th-2003, 03:27 PM

From yesterday's e-mail from ICC:

>>CC records smashed during Game 3 of Kasparov-Fritz X3D!

During the broadcast of game 3 of the match between Kasparov and
Fritz X3D on Sunday, November 16, a number of new records were
set on the Internet Chess Club:

Number of handles logged in at one time: 7352

Number of observers of a game at one time: 5571

Number of different handles to observe a game: 12039

During Game 2 of the match on November 13, another
record was set with 216 FIDE-titled players logged onto
ICC at one time!

Even with the record numbers, ICC was up all the time during
the match, and lag was not a problem.<<

stonemonkts · November-18th-2003, 03:31 PM

Based on the progressive nature of chess strategies and skill, and on Kasparov's longevity at the top, could you say he is the greatest chess player of all time?

I held a deep fascination Fischer the chess champion (as opposed to Fischer the Ezra Pound wanabee). At one time I never thought anyone could match his skills. But now I'd have to say Kasparov has reached heights never before attained in chess.

Larry, would you agree? Anyone?

Squaredancecalling Steve · November-18th-2003, 03:41 PM

I think the general consensus for many years has been that Kasparov is the strongest player of all time.

Enforcer · November-18th-2003, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stonemonkts
Based on the progressive nature of chess strategies and skill, and on Kasparov's longevity at the top, could you say he is the greatest chess player of all time?

I held a deep fascination Fischer the chess champion (as opposed to Fischer the Ezra Pound wanabee). At one time I never thought anyone could match his skills. But now I'd have to say Kasparov has reached heights never before attained in chess.

Larry, would you agree? Anyone?

stonemonk,

It's a nearly impossible thing to argue I guess, but I do believe that a strong argument could be made for either player being strongest of all time (along with a few other guys like Capablanca, etc.).

The fact that Kasparov passed the 2800 rating is not the most important reason, although it's impressive. I believe rating inflation across the board is mostly responsible for that. But in the most scientific era of chess yet (the most recent one), Kasparov has still been considerably stronger than all the rest. So, yes, it's a logical conclusion that being a dominant champion today is harder than being a dominant champion was during Fischer's era. Fischer has some things going for him that are hard to top, though. The incredible gap between him and his contemporaries was more severe than Kasparov's. Fischer played to win as black or white and had dominant scores. Going 13-0 in the U.S. Championship is insane and will never happen again. Winning 20 straight games without a draw or loss against some of the best players in the world is insane and will never happen again.

But Kasparov went 10 consecutive and extremely active years without finishing less than equal first in any tournament, and that's just ridiculous and will not likely be happening again. So Kasparov's dominance is slightly less than Fischer's was, but still evident for many years. Today, chess information is everywhere. There are so many books, internet resources, databases, etc. And so many opponents you can find any time or place, whether a computer or an online opponent from half way around the world. 50 years ago, there were just a few dozen world class players. Today, there are hundreds. So it's easier to be good now, but much, much harder to be way better than everyone else.

Tough argument. No way to convince me 100% that there is a clear answer. One big difference is that Kasparov rose to the top and stayed there, lording over the rest of the chess world. He's fiercely competetive almost 20 years after winning the title. Fischer ran in fear from notions of a title defense and let the game of chess itself beat him in the end. He never played a single game in defense of his championship, unless you count the shameless '92 "rematch" against an already way past his prime Boris Spassky. I think staying on top is harder than just getting there. That's probably a measure of Kasparov's fighting spirit and character that gives him the edge in my book. But that Fischer challenged the Soviet hegemony is pretty amazing too, and seemed worthy of hero worship at the time. Then we found out he favors certain kinds of genocide, so it's hard to "root" for him anymore. But at the time, he was very much a hero to many of us.

Larry

Squaredancecalling Steve · November-18th-2003, 03:59 PM

Great post, Larry!

I'm glad you mentioned Fischer's run-and-hide approach to being champion.

It's harder to evaluate strength in historical figures. You mention Capablanca, and of course Paul Morphy was so much better than everyone else in his day. Alekhine when he was sober seemed invincible at times.

stonemonkts · November-18th-2003, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Squaredancecalling Steve
Great post, Larry!

I'm glad you mentioned Fischer's run-and-hide approach to being champion.

Great post indeed. Thank you very much, sir.

moneyp · November-18th-2003, 04:42 PM

Thirded! Great post, Larry. Now who's the greatest hockey player of all time? :-)

Brian Olewnick · November-18th-2003, 04:45 PM

And can chess players be clutch!?!?

stonemonkts · November-18th-2003, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mone peterson
Thirded! Great post, Larry. Now who's the greatest hockey player of all time? :-)

That's easy.

Vladislav Tretiak!

MRS · November-18th-2003, 05:41 PM

Whoa whoa. . . . . . .no need to align Pound and Bobby Fischer. Not necessary. Not at all.

MRS · November-18th-2003, 05:47 PM

I'm not denying his anti-Semitism either in the Cantos or the European radio broadcasts nonetheless one can't comapre these two people.

stonemonkts · November-18th-2003, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Michael Schaumann
Whoa whoa. . . . . . .no need to align Pound and Bobby Fischer. Not necessary. Not at all.

I'm not sure where you're coming from. I only called Fischer a Pound wanabe based on his radio broadcasts. Pound, as I'm sure you know, broadcast anti-semitic, fascist propaganda during WWII.

I am only glad I learned his poetry before his politics. Pound's Cantos are among my favorite modern poems. I have recordings of him reading them from the sanitorium...his voice perfectly fits the material. We all owe Pound a lot, at least those of us who admire T.S. Eliot and James Joyce.

I think the other thing Fischer has in common is they're both geniuses. I know that's way beside the point.

EDIT: I didn't see your second post until it was too late.

bobetterblues · November-19th-2003, 04:22 AM

Larry,

Settle down, I was just joking around. I don't know anything about Fischer, but if he is indeed "mentally ill" I do think its kind of silly to take anything he says seriously.

I mean I may say I hate some football team and wish them all injuries, which if literally taken is some evil shit, but I really don't mean it and if I was mentally ill I certainly wouldn't "mean it", I'd be pissed off because my meds were on hour late or something.