November-17th-2003, 12:03 PM
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#1
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Six decades
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Capital City
Posts: 12,801
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Barry Bonds, you greedy man
Leaving aside the steroid scandal that should be consuming baseball -- 5 percent to 7 percent positive tests when they knew the tests were coming! -- I have lost the last shred of respect for Barry Bonds the person.
Yeah, he's moody, and he's been called a bad teammate. Now he's the first MLBPA union member EVER to opt out of the joint marketing agreement. Which means no Barry Bonds baseball card from anyone in 2004 unless they cut their own deal with him. No Little League bats (without a separate deal), nothing.
Which means, at least, my son won't be holding up his Barry Bonds card (as he does now) and saying, "Barry Bonds, he's a good hitter."
What a chump.
From the wires:
Going, going, gone.
That's what San Francisco Giants slugger Barry Bonds has told the Major League Baseball Players Association's licensing arm.
Bonds informed the union that he would not be signing the organization's group licensing agreement next year and would instead pursue licensing opportunities on his own.
Players usually sign the group licensing agreement, which allows companies that obtain MLBPA licenses the right to use players' names and likenesses on their products. In exchange for their rights, the players get a percentage of the sale of the products such as trading cards and video games.
The signing of the agreement is usually a formality. In fact, Bonds will become the first union member in the 30-year history of the licensing program not to sign it, said Judy Heeter, director of business affairs and licensing for the MLBPA.
Eric Levin, president of Pro Access Inc., which does the marketing for Bonds, declined comment.
Bonds' decision will have immediate repercussions for baseball fans, who will not be able to purchase Bonds items in MLBPA licensed products, including trading cards and video games. Bonds can sell his licensing rights individually.
Heeter said Bonds can appear separately in card sets, if companies work out deals with him.
"Barry, don't do this! Please, come back!" begged Bill Dully, president of Donruss trading cards.
Dully says Bonds' decision not to participate in the group licensing agreement will make it very hard for card companies to capitalize on his closing in on the all-time home run crown.
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November-17th-2003, 12:06 PM
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#2
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Unflappable
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Jersey City, NJ
Posts: 15,849
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Man. Good thing I don't play APBA anymore or I'd really be pissed!
But yeah, it does sound like a major bit of assholeishness.
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November-17th-2003, 12:15 PM
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#3
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The mouldiest of all figs
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Tustin, CA
Posts: 11,249
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I just can't wait until Barry's first steroid test results are released.
__________________
Stand clear of the doors
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November-17th-2003, 12:39 PM
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#4
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Just be frank
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: SF
Posts: 13,434
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What this article didn't mention (that I read elsewhere) was that Michael Jordan did the same thing. Is he a chump now, too?
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November-17th-2003, 12:48 PM
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#5
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 187
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If we stopped appreciating athletes (or musicians for that matter) who are assholes, life would be pretty boring. Sure, bonds is a jerk, he wears body armor at the plate and he probably took steroids. Doesn't change the fact that he has been the best hitter I've seen over the past few yrs. I still get to sit out in McCovey Cove and dive in the bay for home runs.
__________________
This is war between closed and open circuits, different states of minds. This is not about nations or countries, and not about religion, but about states of mind. -Haruki Murakami
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November-17th-2003, 01:05 PM
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#6
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Unflappable
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Jersey City, NJ
Posts: 15,849
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Oh, I agree, and I've gone great lengths to defend many of his actions as having been interpreted in the worst light, etc. I love him as a player (curious about the steroids, though) but things like the above are tough to explain away.
btw, if the function of steroids is to provide greater strength, one of the outcomes should be that balls hit travel further, yes? Since stats are generally kept on HR length, wouldn't it be a relatively simple matter to compare average HR lengths from early in someone's (eg, Bonds) career vs. later ones? I'm a little skeptical that you'd see much of a difference (ie, I think the increased HR totals derive from other variables). For instance, do balls generally (for all players) carry further in the current SF park than the previous one or the Pittsburgh stadium?
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November-17th-2003, 01:11 PM
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#7
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Six decades
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Capital City
Posts: 12,801
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Go ahead and dive for his home runs. Just don't look for that Topps card.
I could give a crap what Michael Jordan did. Basketball cards and the like really don't mean a thing culturally. I don't idolize any ballplayers and will encourage my son not to.
But for a baseball player to not allow his image to be used for cards, one of the few time-honored, fairly inexpensive ways to pass the sport down through the generations, that, to me, is a shame, if not a sin.
How many extra scheckels will Mr. Bonds make off this? You'd think he -- or his representation -- woulld want to shepherd what little positive image he has left.
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November-17th-2003, 01:17 PM
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#8
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 187
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I can appreciate why you're upset but there are tons of barry bonds cards already out there. Not to mention, I doubt bonds actively plays a role in his contracts and financial dealings. That's why ballplayers have agents and lawyers, so they can just sip martinis and live it up and work out. Their agents are the ones with the bright ideas about how to get more money--and as they are usually fairly successful, the ballplayers give them free rein.
__________________
This is war between closed and open circuits, different states of minds. This is not about nations or countries, and not about religion, but about states of mind. -Haruki Murakami
Last edited by GregM; November-17th-2003 at 01:18 PM.
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November-17th-2003, 02:05 PM
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#9
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Six decades
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Capital City
Posts: 12,801
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You miss the point. I couldn't care less how many Barry Bonds cards are out there. If I got one today, I'd probably burn it.
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November-17th-2003, 02:28 PM
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#10
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Most Loved JC User 2009®
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 39,755
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Greg,
You doubt he plays an active role in his contracts or financial dealings? I have a feeling you're wrong about that. The whole world is an apologist when it comes to sports heroes, so to come across as such a miserable prick as this guy does takes some real work on his part.
Larry
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November-17th-2003, 02:32 PM
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#11
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 6,026
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chris D
Basketball cards and the like really don't mean a thing culturally. I don't idolize any ballplayers and will encourage my son not to.
But for a baseball player to not allow his image to be used for cards, one of the few time-honored, fairly inexpensive ways to pass the sport down through the generations, that, to me, is a shame, if not a sin.
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Well said. . .lest we forget this bloke plays in a made-to-measure stadium, gets a free pass in evincing languor as one of the most complacent outfielders I've seen, he still has as many rings as I do.
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November-17th-2003, 02:41 PM
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#12
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 11,368
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Brian, comparing HR length per se wouldn't prove anything because the set of ballparks used in MLB has been anything but constant and the dimensions within ball parks also get adjusted. A cheap HR in the Fulton County Stadium may be an out when hit to the same spot at Turner Field. See the problem? The Orioles have changed the Camden Yards adjustments twice in the five baseball season I've lived here.
The mean distance of fair balls hit >300 feet has almost certainly risen substantially over the time of Bonds' career. However, it's not easy to deduce from that whether steroids are the major cause of the HR explosion. The growing acceptance of sabermetrics probably plays some role in the increase of HR as organizations favor walk/K/HR hitters over batting average/stolen base type hitters. I'm sure there's a lot more weight training among ballplayers then there used to be. Pitching talent has been diluted from expansion.
My eyes tell me that a lot of players use steroids but I don't have any idea how much of the HR explosion is explained by them.
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November-17th-2003, 02:42 PM
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#13
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All Ur Base R Belong 2 Us
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,699
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Now I can go back to my old Bonds-hating ways.
Barry Bonds is the biggest grade-A chump in the game right now. He can take his 70 gazillion home runs and shove 'em up his rosy red rectum, for all I care.
He's a greedy jackass who's one of the biggest narcissists to play in the history of the game.
The only one who gives him a run for his money is Pete "I'm not guilty but I'll hawk my crap on the Home Shopping Network Rose."
Chump chump chump.
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November-17th-2003, 03:17 PM
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#14
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 187
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gordon B
Pitching talent has been diluted from expansion.
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You said a mouthful.
__________________
This is war between closed and open circuits, different states of minds. This is not about nations or countries, and not about religion, but about states of mind. -Haruki Murakami
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November-17th-2003, 03:19 PM
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#15
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 11,368
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Quote:
Originally posted by RBS
Now I can go back to my old Bonds-hating ways.
Barry Bonds is the biggest grade-A chump in the game right now. He can take his 70 gazillion home runs and shove 'em up his rosy red rectum, for all I care.
He's a greedy jackass who's one of the biggest narcissists to play in the history of the game.
The only one who gives him a run for his money is Pete "I'm not guilty but I'll hawk my crap on the Home Shopping Network Rose."
Chump chump chump.
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John Rocker could always try another comeback.
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November-17th-2003, 03:20 PM
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#16
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2007 Stanley Cup Champs
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,063
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Wait a minute, Chris, Jordan dodges your wrath simply because basketball cards aren't the same time-honored tradition as baseball cards? Puh-leeze. Shaq had also bowed out of the NBA licensing agreement back when he was with the Magic.
The licensing agreement extends well beyond sports cards. It's what allows the league to show it's players on posters, video games, on jerseys and other apparel. Jordan withholding his likeness from NBA merchandise cost the NBA a hell of a lot more than Bonds will to Major League Baseball.
Back when Jordan and Shaq had made themselves unavailable, one particular basketball game (I think it was EA's) cleverly skirted the whole licensing issue with their "Create-A-Player" feature. You type in "Michael Jordan" as the player's name and voila, out pops a 6-9 shooting guard from North Carolina who is a dead ringer for His Airness that you could subsequently place on the Bulls. You could do the same thing for Shaquille O'Neal, a sizeable number of retired NBA legends, and all of the draft picks from that year, none of whom were included in the licensing agreement when the game came out. Electronic Arts could have easily been sued over this, but if they were, I never heard about it, and they've since stopped doing it.
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November-17th-2003, 03:31 PM
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#17
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Unflappable
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Jersey City, NJ
Posts: 15,849
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gordon B
Pitching talent has been diluted from expansion.
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This is something that I bet is overstated.
Firstly, if hitters "get better" (however you want to define it and for whatever reasons), pitchers' stats are obviously going to suffer whether or not they're talent pool has been diluted. ie, I think that in any case it'd be tough to pin the blame on a watered down level of talent. Except....
Secondly, obviously in the year after an expansion, the talent level (at all positions) is lowered somewhat by virtue of the fact that (with two new teams) there are 50 player in MLB who wouldn't have made it the year before. However, you have to bear in mind the pool that the sport is drawing from. Over the course of a few yearts, even if nothing else changes, the general population level will have risen to a point that you're once again skimming off the same percentage as MLB quality. In addition, your source pool itself may have been artificially limited. In 1930, we're talking white males between 20-40. As blacks began to be admitted, clearly the talent level didn't go down (quite the opposite). The hugely increasing number of MLB players from the Dominican Republic in the last couple of decades has similarly increased the viable pool. In more recent years, you have more players (mostly pitchers!) from Japan being able to make the grade.
I'd bet that the ratio of MLB players vs. the potentially baseball-playing population is lower now than it has ever been. Though of course, I have no way of proving it!
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November-17th-2003, 03:45 PM
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#18
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Six decades
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Capital City
Posts: 12,801
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That whole argument is specious, because there are fewer kids playing basebal as a percentage of the population.
The sport is losing them to video games, soccer (yech!), year-round basketball and the like.
And, yeah, mone, I'm giving Jordan a free ride. I really don't care about ancillary products in any sport except baseball.
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November-17th-2003, 04:10 PM
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#19
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Unflappable
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Jersey City, NJ
Posts: 15,849
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You could be correct, Chris. But in that case, hitters should also be "worse" than in the past and I'm not sure (enhancements aside) that's the case.
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November-17th-2003, 04:20 PM
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#20
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 187
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If you look at how long Roger Maris' record stood, look at the league expansion and the number of times that record has been bested since the expansion, taking into account all the other variables, there is statistically speaking ZERO doubt that the pitching talent has been significantly diluted by the expansion.
__________________
This is war between closed and open circuits, different states of minds. This is not about nations or countries, and not about religion, but about states of mind. -Haruki Murakami
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November-17th-2003, 04:34 PM
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#21
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All Ur Base R Belong 2 Us
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,699
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Back to basics:
Bonds is a chump and a major league steroid-enhanced brat.
And if Rocker comes back, he'll be the THIRD biggest jackass in the history of the game, Gordon.
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November-17th-2003, 05:55 PM
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#22
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Unflappable
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Jersey City, NJ
Posts: 15,849
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Quote:
Originally posted by GregM
If you look at how long Roger Maris' record stood, look at the league expansion and the number of times that record has been bested since the expansion, taking into account all the other variables, there is statistically speaking ZERO doubt that the pitching talent has been significantly diluted by the expansion.
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Dunno. The leagues expanded in 1969 then again in 1977. The HR record stood 'til '98. Why wasn't it bettered between '69 and '98?
I'm not sure how you can pick out pitching dilution as opposed virtually every new park being a hitter's park, better bats, more players using lighter, thinner handled bats, the notion gradually sinking in that you can take walks (thus wearing out pitchers earlier), stronger hitters at every position (artificially enhanced or otherwise), etc. As I said before, any offensive increase will be reflected in a corresponding decrease in pitcher's stats. Difficult for me to see how you can know that it's the pitchers who have gotten worse rather than the hitters (or their environments) improving.
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November-17th-2003, 06:11 PM
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#23
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2007 Stanley Cup Champs
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,063
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Quote:
Originally posted by GregM
If you look at how long Roger Maris' record stood, look at the league expansion and the number of times that record has been bested since the expansion, taking into account all the other variables, there is statistically speaking ZERO doubt that the pitching talent has been significantly diluted by the expansion.
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Only if you're not really taking all those other variables into account. The ballparks are much smaller than they were back then, advances in technology, fitness training, etc. favor the hitters.
There was a study done on this, looking at the replacement levels of major league pitchers before and after expansion. Normally, the amount of innings pitched by pitchers who have been in the league at least one year tends to decrease fairly substantially as new blood enters the league. If the theory that more jobs means a significant dilution in talent, than there wouldn't be as much of a decrease as there are more opportunities for a mediocre pitcher to keep his job. Makes sense, right?
And it holds true, for the first year of expansion. Every expansion year MLB has had, there has been a significant drop in the decrease of veteran pitcher innings, as fringe guys find new jobs with those teams or else fill holes in other teams created by expansion.
But it doesn't last. In all the expansions MLB has had, pitchers found themselves just as replaceable as they were prior to expansion within one or two years. The reason is because for all the extra jobs that expansion has created, it's also created an opportunity for new pitchers to show what they can do against major league competition.
My own opinion is that professional scouting of pitching prospects isn't so great that the best 300+ whatever pitchers automatically have major league jobs. There are tons of guys in the minors who are as good or better than many of the guys who do, but haven't had the opportunity to show it. Expansion has increased those opportunities to some extent.
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November-17th-2003, 06:12 PM
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#24
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2007 Stanley Cup Champs
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,063
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I should also mention that this sort of study has been done for the NBA as well, with the same results, although the turnaround is typically a year longer (two to three years).
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November-17th-2003, 08:37 PM
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#25
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Game On
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Dar al Harb
Posts: 8,857
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I agree with everything RBS said. Jordan carried himself with class throughout his career; at least until he made the ill-advised decision to play for the Bullets, errrr Wizards. Bonds is a jackass to everybody; except for ass puppets like Arse-smoochio Hall and that idiot that wrote that horrible article in the Sunday Times.
There's also that bothersome fact that Jordon actually won championships.
Last edited by Captain Hate; November-17th-2003 at 08:41 PM.
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November-17th-2003, 08:51 PM
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#26
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poor folk's child
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 12,179
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Last edited by Uli; November-17th-2003 at 09:31 PM.
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November-17th-2003, 10:17 PM
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#27
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2007 Stanley Cup Champs
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,063
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Quote:
Originally posted by Captain Hate
There's also that bothersome fact that Jordon actually won championships.
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I don't see how it's bothersome. Jordan plays in a sport where one player has a significant impact on whether or not his team wins the championship. Bonds doesn't.
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November-17th-2003, 11:01 PM
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#28
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koong
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,008
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i say go for it bonds. nobody bitches when steinbrenner leverages another plus million dollar deal with a tv station. nobody throws it in gates face. why should owners, bat makers, and the rest get 1 extra buck off bonds. take it back out of the fat cats deep pockets.
bonds is a major fuckin' talent.
__________________
fpop
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November-17th-2003, 11:37 PM
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#29
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Game On
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Dar al Harb
Posts: 8,857
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Quote:
Originally posted by mone peterson
I don't see how it's bothersome. Jordan plays in a sport where one player has a significant impact on whether or not his team wins the championship. Bonds doesn't.
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That's too pat of an answer by far; Jordan led by example whether it was by organizing weight lifting sessions with teammates or pushing extra hard in preseason practices. Its because of the attitude that he had and the respect he commanded that the Bulls could take a chance on loose cannons like Rodmann or Bison Dele. This attitude paid off in other ways, like Jon Paxson and Steve Kerr hitting championship series winning shots. It was always about the team.
What example does Bonds set: Take your designer steroids and let your personal trainer figure out how to best use them to boost your stats. Mi-mi-mi-mi-miiiiiiiiiiii.
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November-18th-2003, 01:34 AM
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#30
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Just be frank
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: SF
Posts: 13,434
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I can't believe there is an argument here about how atheletes make their money. Most of them in a major league sport make more money in one game than many of us make in a year. To debate the plusses and minuses of how they make that that - and MORE - is insane.
Hey - let's debate Adam Sandler's salary now, OK?
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