Hybrid Car Wins 2004 Car of the Year Award

[Monte Smith]

Good news!



Associated Press

DETROIT -- The world's first commercially mass-produced hybrid car has claimed the honor of 2004 Car of the Year from Motor Trend magazine.

What helped drive the Toyota Prius to become Motor Trend magazine's 2004 Car of the Year? Great fuel economy -- up to 60 miles a gallon in the city.

Editor-in-chief Kevin Smith describes the Prius as "a capable, comfortable, fun-to-drive car that just happens to get spectacular fuel economy."

The newest version of the Toyota Prius, introduced in 1997, beat out 26 new or significantly reengineered models from car makers like Acura, BMW, Cadillac and Volkswagen.

The magazine said the Prius is spacious enough to be classified as a mid-size sedan, and has a base price of about $20,000.

The newly designed Prius hit U.S. showrooms in October.

A hybrid car switches between a gasoline or diesel engine and an electric motor to deliver the best mileage. The car recharges itself during the drive.

For now, the only hybrid versions available in the United States are small cars made by Toyota and Honda. But several major automakers have models in the works, including trucks and sport utility vehicles.

[Tanager]

If this generates more demand for fuel-efficient automobiles, I say good news to be sure. It's kinda weird, agreeing with Monte. I hope I don't get used to it or anything.

[Monte Smith]

C'mon, Tan. We can all get behind market-driven technological improvements!

Scuh-rew you, OPEC!

NO!!!!! MUST....................HAVE.........................................MORE...HORSEPOWER..............ugh....

[Tanager]

Originally posted by Scott Dolan
NO!!!!! MUST....................HAVE.........................................MORE...HORSEPOWER..............ugh....

Maybe what we need is a need-based application process for getting a big truck, SUV, or Caddy.

"I'm sorry, Ma'am, but we can't approve your application to buy a Lexus SUV. You simply can't demonstrate a legitimate need for a fifty thousand dollar car which drinks gas like a dump truck just for ferrying your ass to the country club. We can, however, approve a nice Honda Civic for you."

"No sir, you do NOT need a Ram 2500 with a 10cyl Cummins and four-wheel drive b/c you *might* one day quit your job selling equities and become an arborist. May we suggest a Jetta and a penis extension?"

[Ron Thorne]

Originally posted by Tanager
Maybe what we need is a need-based application process for getting a big truck, SUV, or Caddy.

"I'm sorry, Ma'am, but we can't approve your application to buy a Lexus SUV. You simply can't demonstrate a legitimate need for a fifty thousand dollar car which drinks gas like a dump truck just for ferrying your ass to the country club. We can, however, approve a nice Honda Civic for you."

"No sir, you do NOT need a Ram 2500 with a 10cyl Cummins and four-wheel drive b/c you *might* one day quit your job selling equities and become an arborist. May we suggest a Jetta and a penis extension?"

Your remarks damned made me wet my pants, Tanager. By the way, a Jetta TDI Diesel would be the most fuel-efficient choice. I can't comment on the most realistic, comfortable penis extensions.

Seriously, though, kudos to Toyota and Honda for bravely moving this technology forward.

[Monte Smith]

My mother-in-law wants to trade her 1980s-era diesel burner for an SUV. I have no problem with that, but I am tickled by her reasoning. Most SUV buyers at least pretend they have some manly reason for needing a monster vehicle (or they have a real reason, like kids). But not so my mother-in-law. She wants something spacious for carting around her floral arrangements. Yuk yuk yuk.

[Tanager]

Originally posted by Monte Smith
My mother-in-law wants to trade her 1980s-era diesel burner for an SUV. I have no problem with that, but I am tickled by her reasoning. Most SUV buyers at least pretend they have some manly reason for needing a monster vehicle (or they have a real reason, like kids). But not so my mother-in-law. She wants something spacious for carting around her floral arrangements. Yuk yuk yuk.

Dare I suggest a station wagon?

I'm stoked about the Prius, seriously, and I really hope that the award generates increased demand. I'd love to see the automakers in a race with each other to satisfy demand for efficient/clean vehicles instead of the current light truck crap craze.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

*%#@#$!!!

I hate when I type in a big long post and when I click "SUBMIT REPLY", I get an error message THAT WIPES THE MESSAGE AWAY! Why does this software do that? No other web site I use does it.

Anyway, as I typed up already, I am loving my "Car of the Year". I have filled it up 4 times already and I'm getting around 51 mpg. Cohones like crazy. Anyone who says this "hybrid" is underpowered is just a lead-foot.

And is it quiet! Man, my 95 Buick Park Ave was quiet but this is close... especially when it's in electric mode.

This morning was "commuter's hell". Rain had every highway between here and Wilmington, MA crawling along. My normal 40 minute commute took 90 minutes. But guess what? I got the best gas mileage of any commute ever! I got nearly 52 mpg. I was in electric mode for so long at one point that my gas engine kicked on to charge up the battery. That was a first.

Kevin

[Monte Smith]

That sounds like a sweet ride, Kevin. What kind of ballpark are we talking about to drive that sucker off the lot? I'm thinking of trading in the Taurus next year--how'd you think a kid would do in a Prius?

[Mike Schwartz]

Cool as the gas saving is there is absolutely no *bravery* involved by Toyota, Honda or any other car company. It's all about $$$$, covering thier butts in the event of market and/or fuel shortages, and getting the jump on the competition.

On almost all cars EXCEPT THE HYBRIDS, you can get the deeply discounted pricing, special low or ZERO% financing and so on and so forth.

Buy a hybrid and pay full bust out retail, one price, probably no special finance option.
They are [the hybrids] the new profit darlings for the car makers.

Buying a hybrid in today's world is about being a citizen who cares...
It's like in California and the southwestern states for instance; puzzling why solar
energy homes and business' aren't the norm. It's the most common sense, inexpensive [potentially], viable, and readily available proven alternative method around RIGHT NOW.

If you want that done to the place you live in, you go it alone and pay for it.
Figures I've seen and heard of tell that the solar home you retrofit will save the equivilent $$$$ in energy bills that you would pay in the next 30-35 years.

Buy a hybrid car [and be the citizen, which is admirable] and it is unlikely one would save in gas dollars the $5-6,000 you would save in today's market place buying a conventional car.

[Monte Smith]

True, Mike. That's why this Motor Trends prize is cool: it will create more demand, which is what fuels market solutions. The guy who has to have the latest toy will pay a premium for the Hummer. it;s not so bad if the guy who wants the latest toy and will pay a premium wants a hybrid.

[Mike Schwartz]

When discussions about fuel efficiency and milage figures are put forth, the implication that significant money is being saved is far from true, other than out of pocket when visiting the gas station, but not overall when buying one of the hybrids.....not yet anyway.

[Ron Thorne]

Originally posted by Monte Smith
True, Mike. That's why this Motor Trends prize is cool: it will create more demand, which is what fuels market solutions. The guy who has to have the latest toy will pay a premium for the Hummer. it;s not so bad if the guy who wants the latest toy and will pay a premium wants a hybrid.

On that we definitely agree, Monte, though the two fictitious "guys" have decidedly different priorities, obviously.

Mike, perhaps "brave" wasn't the best choice of words on my part. Bold might have been a better choice. I'm not so naive as to think that Honda and Toyota are primarily motivated by altruism, either. Having said that, it seems that there was a rather substantial risk in developing and marketing these cars at the time they did. Where's America in this equation?

Finally, consumers saving dollars in gas or the sticker price is obviously only part of the picture with hybrids vs. conventional automobiles. Less gas consumed means less gas produced and burned, lower levels of pollution, etc.

Glad you're enjoying your Prius so much, Kevin.

I hear that Tanager. Loud and Clear.

The biggest joke about Florida is that almost everyone drives SUV's(which, down there I always referred to as 'Sport Futility Vehicles'). Flattest fucking state in America, and everyone needs four wheel drive for some reason.

SUV's are a sham when all you are using them for is taking the little guy to school. And most of the new ones have almost zero off road capability. And yes, they fucking drink gas to beat the band. And let me just say that the band has been taking one hell of a beating these days.

Hooray for the Prius, I think the award is fantastic, and I'm glad to hear that Kevin is really enjoying his car.

I love the environment.

But I'm also a hardcore driving enthusiast. We DO need more of these types of cars on the market and on the road. But unless they can come up with these types of cars that can reproduce the horsepower that you find in even mid level sports cars, I don't think you'll ever see a huge demand for them(beyond the type of demand you might see for something like a minivan). But I do think that they will eventually carve out a nice little niche for themselves.

On a related note, I have started up my new car fund. Anybody want to contribute?




Oh, and side note to Kevin, yes, I really hate when your message gets knocked out by some bullshit error message. Word to the wise my friend, I now have this quirky little habit of highlighting my entire post before I submit it, then right click->then copy. It's been a finger saver for me(not to mention blood pressure), I highly suggest you do it before submitting a post.

[Tanager]

Kevin/Scott: I hate that too, but Mosaic (as opposed to IE) seems to keep my text around so that I can go back to the post entry form page and just resubmit it. At least some of the time.

Originally posted by Tanager
Kevin/Scott: I hate that too, but Mosaic (as opposed to IE) seems to keep my text around so that I can go back to the post entry form page and just resubmit it. At least some of the time.

And on top of that, they offer some of the sweetest boxsets around!!!

[Tanager]

Originally posted by Scott Dolan
And on top of that, they offer some of the sweetest boxsets around!!!

Boxsets and browsers, what more can you ask for?

[jesus marion joseph]

Originally posted by Mike Schwartz
Cool as the gas saving is there is absolutely no *bravery* involved by Toyota, Honda or any other car company. It's all about $$$$, covering thier butts in the event of market and/or fuel shortages, and getting the jump on the competition.

On almost all cars EXCEPT THE HYBRIDS, you can get the deeply discounted pricing, special low or ZERO% financing and so on and so forth.

Buy a hybrid and pay full bust out retail, one price, probably no special finance option.
They are [the hybrids] the new profit darlings for the car makers.

Buying a hybrid in today's world is about being a citizen who cares...
It's like in California and the southwestern states for instance; puzzling why solar
energy homes and business' aren't the norm. It's the most common sense, inexpensive [potentially], viable, and readily available proven alternative method around RIGHT NOW.

If you want that done to the place you live in, you go it alone and pay for it.
Figures I've seen and heard of tell that the solar home you retrofit will save the equivilent $$$$ in energy bills that you would pay in the next 30-35 years.

Buy a hybrid car [and be the citizen, which is admirable] and it is unlikely one would save in gas dollars the $5-6,000 you would save in today's market place buying a conventional car.

The reason you don't get any discount on the hybrid cars is because the manufacturers are actually making a net loss on them at the moment. They are not yet widespread enough to offset the development costs. Also, if I remember correctly, the Honda Insight was the first hybrid to market, not the Prius.

Lastly, what's up with the assumption that one must have an undersized penis if you like cars with high power output? It seems that the people who fall back on this proposition are the ones who understand least how cars work, or even how to do routine maintenance on their own car.*
















*mrs. jmj says my penis is "just fine thank you".

[Tanager]

Originally posted by jesus marion joseph
Lastly, what's up with the assumption that one must have an undersized penis if you like cars with high power output? It seems that the people who fall back on this proposition are the ones who understand least how cars work, or even how to do routine maintenance on their own car.*

Hrm...so if I understood more about cars, I'd necessarily want a bigger one with more fuel-sucking power, even if I didn't need one? Or the fact that I take my car in for oil changes instead of doing them myself means I don't enjoy driving fast cars?

I'm guessing you were being facetious, but I don't think it's even remotely a stretch that many of the SUVs are sold to guys who feel the need to validate their image of themselves as rugged/outdoorsy/manly types. I know more than a few like that personally. I have actually had conversations that went like this: "Oh, you like to go hiking? Dude, I just got a killer Xterra." I never figured out the relation, especially since the guy who said that probably needs sherpas just to find his car in the lot, let alone go "hiking."

Sorry, I feel pretty comfortable in my holier-than-thou contempt for such people, thank you.

*mrs. jmj says my penis is "just fine thank you".

Phew, because I'd been really worried about that.

Hrm...so if I understood more about cars, I'd necessarily want a bigger one with more fuel-sucking power, even if I didn't need one?

I wonder if that was really his point, Tanager.

I thought that he was referring more to driving enthusiasts, like myself. I hate large gas guzzling auto's. I couldn't care less about SUV's, and large trucks. I love small, fast cars. And as JMJ alludes to, I take a special interest in my car front to back, top to bottom, whereas most people in this world just look at it as a means to get them from point A to point B. And most don't even change their oil when they are supposed to(and most of them don't even know WHEN they are supposed to).

As far as SUV's go, I don't like them, but I can understand how the outdoor types would love them. I guess I just don't see whats wrong with that. Maybe some DO need them for validation, but I'm sure thats not what the majority of buyers are getting them for.

[Enforcer]

That award will be a boon to Toyota. That's a biggie.

SUVs on the road are killing me. Single people with no kids spending huge money on those things... I don't get it. For those of us who actually still want a car that can handle, it's getting hard to even see anything on the road because all the SUVs sit too damn high. For the price of a clumsy SUV you could have a high performance coupe or sedan or something.

A "car guy" in an SUV world,
Larry

For the price of a clumsy SUV you could have a high performance coupe or sedan or something.

Exactly. And a sport bike for those nice summer days.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Originally posted by jesus marion joseph
The reason you don't get any discount on the hybrid cars is because the manufacturers are actually making a net loss on them at the moment. They are not yet widespread enough to offset the development costs.

Toyota has claimed that for the past 2 model years (2002 & 2003) they have been making a profit. Supposedly, the Prius has sold in large enough volumes to recoup their development cost. Granted, they could be using some "funny" accounting, but there's also the simple fact that if they were losing money on every one they sold, the "Big 3" in the US would have already had them over a barrel with a fair trade complaint. That is a definite.

Originally posted by jesus marion joseph

Also, if I remember correctly, the Honda Insight was the first hybrid to market, not the Prius.

The Honda Insight was the first hybrid introduced into the US market (in 2000), however, Toyota has been selling the Prius in Japan since 1997. It's also why they made money on the car after only one year of sales here in the US: they sold a whole bunch in Japan during the 97-00 model years.

Originally posted by jesus marion joseph
Lastly, what's up with the assumption that one must have an undersized penis if you like cars with high power output? It seems that the people who fall back on this proposition are the ones who understand least how cars work, or even how to do routine maintenance on their own car?

Hey, I traded in a full size Chevy pickup to drive this car so I ain't gonna comment on that!

There does seem to be some sort of "compensation" factor for tiny women driving huge SUVs though. They practically fall out of them in the store parking lots!

Later,
Kevin

[Tanager]

Originally posted by Scott Dolan
As far as SUV's go, I don't like them, but I can understand how the outdoor types would love them. I guess I just don't see whats wrong with that. Maybe some DO need them for validation, but I'm sure thats not what the majority of buyers are getting them for.

I'm pretty sure that the number of buyers who get them b/c of some real "need" (other than emotional ) is in the very small minority. You need to move kids and/or groceries? Get a minivan or a station wagon. You're an outdoors-y type? Get the state car of Colorado, a Subaru Outback. It'll drive a hell of a lot better, and very few of the SUVs sold are truly "offroad-capable" for anything more than a washboarded gravel road, anyway.

Hell, FWIW, I'm an outdoors-y type, I suppose - and I've taken all manner of cars down (and sometimes off of) some of the most wretched roads you can imagine to get to this or that hiking/birding spot. I even (although it was pretty stupid to do so) fjorded creeks in my old Mercury Tracer. A friend of mine tells me you can spot the newbies at climbing spots out west, b/c they are the only ones with nice cars. (I'm not a climber myself.)

One of the funniest things to watch (Scott, as a former Floridian, you might have seen the same thing) is some idiot with his brand-new 4x4 decide to go beach-driving. 99% of the time, they don't know to deflate the tires first, they get in deep and assume that just revving will get them out, b/c they "have four wheel drive." A friend of mine actually saw some college kid get his jeep stranded out at Hatteras point below the tideline. Tide was coming in. When the wrecker came and refused to go out there (quite reasonably) for the jeep, regardless of the price, the kid whined, "but that's my jeep!" The wrecker driver replied, "no, that's God's jeep now."

[Tanager]

Originally posted by Scott Dolan
Exactly. And a sport bike for those nice summer days.

Deep down, Scott, you're a treehugger. You just don't want to admit it. Advocating alternative transportation, no less!

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Oh hey... I almost forgot! My other household vehicle is a Toyota Sienna minivan! It's my third minivan. My wife refuses to switch even now that she's no longer doing in-home daycare (which necessitated the minivan in the first place).

But on the horizon: Toyota announced that they plan a hybrid Sienna in 2005-2006! I'll be there.

Later,
Kevin

Get a minivan or a station wagon.

Yeah, but lets be real honest here. Whats the major difference. Your average mini has the same size engine as your average SUV. Same thing for the station wagon. And interior volume is often much better in the SUV.

One of the funniest things to watch (Scott, as a former Floridian, you might have seen the same thing) is some idiot with his brand-new 4x4 decide to go beach-driving.

Oh sure. Matter of fact, in Florida you can run into the dreaded sugar sand(which is actually MUCH finer than beach sand) almost anywhere without even having to go to the beach. I couldn't even begin to count(I've always hated math)the number of dipshits that I've seen get caught in that stuff, get nervous, and just floor it, digging themselves into a sweet little hole.

Deep down, Scott, you're a treehugger. You just don't want to admit it. Advocating alternative transportation, no less!

Hey, I've admitted to my love of nature. But I also must confess my need for speed as well!! Nothing really comes close to hopping on a sport bike and flogging that fucker to redline through the first three gears or so. YEAH!!!!!!

[Tanager]

Originally posted by Scott Dolan
Yeah, but lets be real honest here. Whats the major difference. Your average mini has the same size engine as your average SUV. Same thing for the station wagon. And interior volume is often much better in the SUV.

Scott, I don't think that's true at all. The most popular SUV is the Explorer, so let's use that as our point of comparison...

Very few station wagons (outside of the BMW 540i) have engines > 3.0 liters. In fact, I can't think of any. My Passat has a 2.8 v6 and gets substantially better mileage than (for example) an Explorer, which comes with 4.0 v6 or a 4.8 v8. The Outback comes with a 2.something or the 3.0 v6. Minivans also have considerably smaller engines. And both handle better. Wagons, much better.

For a better comparison, let's match my Passat up against an Escape, which is closer in size (the Passat has a 106 in. wheelbase, the Escape 103 in.). Passats come standard with a 1.8l turbo 4 (which is actually a pretty nifty engine and not much less powerful than the 6, you really lose mostly in low-end torque). Escapes come with a 3.0 v6. So both Passat engines are smaller. And in terms of storage space: the Escape has 33 cu. ft. luggage, 65 cu. ft. cargo; the Passat, 39 and 57. So I'd call that a wash. And I have driven an Escape before, most recently on a business trip in October. I really didn't enjoy driving it at all, and I doubt anyone else comparing the two would disagree. So to get the carrying capacity of an Explorer (which I've also driven before, once for an entire week while birding and hiking in Idaho with my Dad), you have to gun up with the bigger engine. You drop the engine, you lose the advantage in carrying capacity.

Listen, I'm not an absolutist, despite how I come across - lots of folks have real needs for these, and great, go buy 'em. And if you just like an SUV (for whatever bizarre reason), great, go buy one. I just think that, for the vast majority of buyers, a wagon is a better choice.

[jesus marion joseph]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tanager
Hrm...so if I understood more about cars, I'd necessarily want a bigger one with more fuel-sucking power, even if I didn't need one? Or the fact that I take my car in for oil changes instead of doing them myself means I don't enjoy driving fast cars?[QUOTE]

Not necessarily, but there is a cadre of people who don't understand anything about cars, and assume that the only reason one is attracted to a high performance car is because of some physical deficiency. Frankly, I don't care if that's what they think, but they rarely pass on the opportunity to make their (ill informed) opinion known. BTW, appreciating cars doesn't equate with lusting for more pwerful ones. I am fascinated by the Insight and Prius for many of the same reasons I am fascinated by Porsches and Ferraris.

I'm guessing you were being facetious, but I don't think it's even remotely a stretch that many of the SUVs are sold to guys who feel the need to validate their image of themselves as rugged/outdoorsy/manly types. I know more than a few like that personally. I have actually had conversations that went like this: "Oh, you like to go hiking? Dude, I just got a killer Xterra." I never figured out the relation, especially since the guy who said that probably needs sherpas just to find his car in the lot, let alone go "hiking."
Sorry, I feel pretty comfortable in my holier-than-thou contempt for such people, thank you.

I really wasn't being facetious, but I agree with your contempt for poseurs. I was referring more to cars as opposed to SUVs, though, mostly becasue there seem to be more women driving them than men these days. Either way, it seems like waste of money and resources if you're never going to take your $50,000.00 SUV off road. But that's just my opinion.