Joni Mitchell

Gentle Giant · April-3rd-2003, 03:25 PM

This is a 90-minute American Masters program that premiered on PBS last night (I guess it already aired on the CBC, which means that here it should be called NORTH American Masters). It's a wonderful profile of one of the towering geniuses of 20th century popular music. Best of all, the filmmaker wisely committed to showing complete performances of tunes whenever possible. Most affecting were two stunning live clips of songs from Blue: the title track and A Case of You. The only disappointments to me were the relatively slight coverage given to Hejira, and the complete skipping over of her mid-late 80s period, which gave us the highly underrated Dog Eat Dog. As they say, check your local listings; this is a show well worth watching.

jazzy mary · April-3rd-2003, 04:03 PM

I saw this last night. I really dug it. I find the "American Masters" series to almost always very good. They did a fine one on Richard Rodgers too.

Jazzooo · April-3rd-2003, 04:07 PM

Thanks, Giant. I taped it and am looking forward to watching--I'll probably throw on the video of Shadows and Light right after it!

Doug

cookie · April-3rd-2003, 07:12 PM

I only caught the last half, but it was wonderful. Joni Mitchell is inspirational.
Must see the entire thing at some point.

BFrank · April-4th-2003, 12:48 AM

It was nice that they devoted several minutes to the "Mingus" project. How it was started and the work that went into it - ultimately to be panned by the critics.

The one mystery I find with her is that on the one hand she is a devoted "artist" in the true sense of the word. She creates her art (both in music and paint) on her own terms, yet she seems totally frustrated at the lack of wide, popular recognition. Doesn't she understand that in almost all cases the best artists typically are not the most commercially recognized - especially in their own lifetimes.

Tom Storer · April-4th-2003, 03:36 AM

"Mingus" was panned by the critics? I never knew that. I love it.

Jimmy J · April-4th-2003, 05:29 AM

"Shadows and Light" is available on DVD now for anyone who wore their videotape out - www.audiophileimports.com

jazzy mary · April-4th-2003, 10:53 AM

This show got me interested in buying the "Don Juan's Younger Daughter" cd (do I have that title correct?). Would you all recommend that?

jazzy mary · April-4th-2003, 11:32 AM

I guess Joni is all that and more!! :-)

Tanager · April-4th-2003, 12:32 PM

Dammit, I missed this, and both Mrs. Tanager and I love Joni Mitchell. Anyone know if it's scheduled for a rebroadcast?

Darryl G. Thomas · April-4th-2003, 03:17 PM

I was channeling hopping and caught some of the Mingus segment. I too didn't know it was critically panned. But at the time the only reviews I was reading were Chris A's in Stereo Review and I can't remember him reviewing it.

Anyway, I did replace my vinyl copy with the Cd version awhile back. I moved a couple of years ago and still haven't completely unpacked (lazy). So I'll have to dig through the boxes to find it.

gonzo · April-5th-2003, 01:09 AM

one day while sifting through my hippie, flower childs, sister's record collection i noticed an album called"hejira". oh my god!!
wayne shorter and jaco??!! i through it on and it was great. that night my love affair with the music of joni mitchell began. i bought everything that came before and after. i watched the american masters show and i would highly recommend the show.

moneyp · April-5th-2003, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Gitin
This is getting interesting: younger, restless, reckless. What's next?

Feckless.

My favorite Joni is either COURT & SPARK or HISSING OF THE SUMMER LAWNS although HEJIRA is also damned fine.

I'm not really a folkie, but I find C&S so damned evocative. One of my early unfinished projects was to write a series of short stories that a friend was going to illustrate, each story based on one of the songs from the album. Not the text, but the mood.

BFrank · April-5th-2003, 03:11 AM

Hejira is really a masterpiece. When I first got it, I thought it was interesting, but kept listening to it and one day it just hit me how amazing and unique it was. From the chord changes to the rhythms to the vocals - there's nothing like it.

I was fortunate to have seen "The Last Waltz" in person and remember when Joni came out to do her set. I was expecting the usual mix of flower-y folk music, but instead she played this strange music like I'd never heard before. I dismissed it at the time as just something experimental and forgot about it. When the film was recently re-released I went to see it and shocked to realize that what she had played was "Coyote" and "Furry Sings the Blues" from Hejira which might not have even been released at the time.

Jazzooo · April-5th-2003, 10:47 AM

Those are two great stories, BFrank and Dave!

Well, finally watched the documentary and it was terrific--very well-done though you're right, they could have spent a little more time on the '80s and early '90s music.

She obviously has a problem with feeling appreciated--she was stunned when someone recognized her and then cynical about all the following recognition--that doesn't mean she's right about it.

And her issues as i understand then aren't about being appreciated by the publoic so much as the industry she has created revenue for for 30 years now. She's been treated shabbily by the accounts I've read--talked down to in meetings, having to fight for royalties and recording budgets every step fo the way. of course, she's able to record with the people she wants to at all, which is a priviledge.

Her first album, Song to seagull--very folkie stuff, but let me tell you: I was 12 and writing my own songs on the piano and her alternate guitar tunings and emotional voice and lyrics just blew my mind. She really did open up a new world of harmony for me. I loved her point in the documentary about how Dylan used personal lyrics for the first time in folk/pop, but sacrificed melody to do it (which is what she added).

walto · April-5th-2003, 11:51 AM

I've had a crush on her as long as I can remember. What a song writer!

Forget about Graham Nash! Forget about James Taylor! Forget about all the other miscellaneous thousands. I'm here! Me!

Bill Beran · April-7th-2003, 03:36 PM

Joni Mitchell sucks.

"Free Man in Paris" is probably the worst song of all time.

Just my opinion.

jazzy mary · April-8th-2003, 01:56 PM

Yeah, I love that song.

patricia · April-8th-2003, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tanager
Dammit, I missed this, and both Mrs. Tanager and I love Joni Mitchell. Anyone know if it's scheduled for a rebroadcast?

I don't know if it's the same doc that's being discussed here, but I caught one, but not from the beginning, so I don't know the title, on CBC a couple of weeks ago.
It showed film of her early performances, interviews here in Canada and a large bit about her relationship with Graham Nash.
There was also current interview material with Joni and the program was very interesting and enjoyable, I thought.

Because I lived in Canada, during the first years of the "Canadian Content" rules governing broadcast, I must admit that I felt I had been over-exposed to Joni in the sixties and early seventies. I can't hear "Big Yellow Taxi", without cringing.

I am very impressed with the present direction of her career and although I don't think that she has a great jazz voice, she didn't have a great folk voice either, IMO. It was always her lyrics and her unusual chords that I found interesting. I love her "Both Sides Now" CD, particularly "Comes Love" and one of her compositions "A Case Of You". An impressive career.

Valerie · April-8th-2003, 02:32 PM

I've never been a big Joanie fan but certainly admire her talent and her person. What really blew me away was the CD she did a couple/few years ago with the London Symphony, Herbie and Wayne. I thoroughly enjoyed this documentary and certainly learned a lot about her. Must admit that I would have loved to have heard from some of her other "ex's" who are also musicians. What I heard from one was that she was "very high maintenance" which caused me to comment as follows: "Duh??!!!" Like, what would they expect given what they already knew about her?!? She's a brilliant, talented, opinionated woman who is probably on her own case 24/7!! I am so happy that she "found" her daughter and has her grandchildren as well. Definitely brought tears to my eyes.

Gentle Giant · April-8th-2003, 03:41 PM

Hejira is the masterpiece in my opinion. Ladies of the Canyon, Blue, and Court & Spark round out her must-haves (again, IMO). Her most underrated/underappreciated albums, which I heartily recommend, are Hissing of Summer Lawns, Dog Eat Dog, and Taming the Tiger. And yes, Mingus was despised by both the pop and jazz communities when it was released; by the latter for its pretentiousness (not my appraisal), and by the latter as white opportunism. She talks about this pretty extensively in an interview with Bill Flanagan in his anthology Written in My Soul (out of print).

What I liked best about the documentary (and yes, it's the same one that was shown on the CBC) is that it was focused on her art and her body of work, not on the stars she slept with or any of the other Behind the Music-type topics that typically take center stage.

I know people who love Joni and I know people who don't necessarily enjoy but definitely respect Joni, but any clod who comes right out and says she sucks is just simply an idiot.

patricia · April-8th-2003, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gentle Giant

What I liked best about the documentary (and yes, it's the same one that was shown on the CBC) is that it was focused on her art and her body of work, not on the stars she slept with or any of the other Behind the Music-type topics that typically take center stage.

I know people who love Joni and I know people who don't necessarily enjoy but definitely respect Joni, but any clod who comes right out and says she sucks is just simply an idiot. [/B]

Absolutely.
There was an interesting bit of trivia about the documentary, consisting of a small section, in which Joni was being interviewed on an afternoon talkshow at the beginning of her career. The show was "Take 30" on CBC and the interviewers were Paul Soles, who may be dead now, and Adrienne Clarkson, who is now the Governor General of Canada.

As for some people saying that Joni sucks, I challenge them to trace other artists' careers from being a successful folk artist, pop artist and now, in her latest incarnation an artist with a real understanding of the jazz idium, and a success at all of them. Rare. She may not be among the venerated and, I think, she would be the first to agree. However, she is certainly remarkable.
I don't like everything she did, but she certainly has earned the respect of the established greats and I can't argue with them, nor would I.

Tom Storer · April-9th-2003, 06:00 AM

I would berate Bill Beran for saying "Joni Mitchell sucks," for I disagree totally. However, I know how good it can feel to let it all hang out against an artist generally revered, but whom you hate.

Take Frank Zappa, for example. Frank Zappa sucks.

Gentle Giant · April-9th-2003, 12:10 PM

BTW, folks should check out pbs.org or call their local PBS stations for info on rebroadcasts. Also, the American Masters page on pbs.org has a good interview with the producer and interview clips that were NOT used in the docu, including her talking about her friendships with James Taylor and Neil Young, and David Crosby predicting that in 100 years, people will look back and say that "she was the greatest of us all."

I feel like a black crow flying in a blue, blue sky.

P.S. Travelogue really is lovely, even better than Both Sides Now, her previous orchestral work.

P.S. Just because you don't like something, it doesn't follow logically that that thing sucks. One's childish attitude doesn't turn a subjective opinion into an objective assertion of fact. I don't particularly care for Eminem but it's clear that he doesn't suck.

patricia · April-9th-2003, 12:26 PM

I'll look for "Travelogue".
I have just the one Joni CD, which I copied and sent to a friend who compared it to Linda Ronstadt's foray into jazz, which I think does Joni an injustice. Of course, he's a dyed-in-the-wool jazzer, so I take that into consideration. He certainly recognizes talent, as do I.
Speaking of Emenem, my youngest daughter drew my attention to his lyrics, which essentially are more social comment than music, so, on that basis he's certainly effective.
My father used to say that rappers are an example of the phenomenum that even people who can't sing can be recording artists.

Joni is not one of those, despite the fact that her compositions are more personal feelings, which, to me, make them interesting.

Tom Storer · April-9th-2003, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gentle Giant
Just because you don't like something, it doesn't follow logically that that thing sucks. One's childish attitude doesn't turn a subjective opinion into an objective assertion of fact.

But part of the bratty satisfaction of saying "so and so sucks" is precisely that its targets will frown and disapprove. It's generally very clear that it's the expression of a personal opinion.

Bill Beran · April-9th-2003, 12:41 PM

Tom Storer: Thanks for getting my back!

But FRANK ZAPPA SUCKS!?

How DARE you!

:-)

Tom Storer · April-9th-2003, 05:18 PM

Bill, Joni would kick Zappa's pimply ass. So there!

patricia · April-9th-2003, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by patricia
Tom,
You betcha!! I would say both musically and literally. She's a tough broad and I say that with utmost respect.

Jimmy J · April-10th-2003, 03:50 AM

"Hejira" - a "Desert Island" disc for me.

I remember when I was first learning bass about 10 years ago, and I found out Jaco had played on "Hejira". I was very wary about Joni Mitchell, because I am not a fan of folk music at all and I thought it would be a little Hicky, even worse than "Bright Size Life" which did nothing for me.

However, from the moment I put it on, I realised that these tunes were brilliant. The chords were gorgeous and the playing was naturally sublime. The storytelling is great, the music conjures up a lot of imagery for me. I wonder if she'd contemplate taking another couple of years out travelling and do another "Hejira II" set?

I went on to check most of the other Joni stuff up to that period out, but "Hejira" stands above it all for me. "Hissing of Summer Laws" I like too, mainly for "Edith and The Kingpin" which again, I love the chords, the driftiness of the vocal.

I haven't heard any of the late 80's or 90's stuff - if there is anything that rates with the "Hejira" tunes, please let me know and I'll check it out.