Thelonious Monk

[Hard Bop Cutter]

I am a big fan of Thelonious Monk, something about the way he plays brings me to another world.
But why was the guy considered such a great techtition? Am I missing something? I have a couple of his records, but have heard him play alot through other means. I figure its his cord progressions becasue his left hand never seems to stop doing that "rag" thing, but is there something else?

Thanks-
HBC

[Tom Storer]

I'm not a musician, but I don't believe Monk is generally considered a great technician in the way Art Tatum or Bud Powell is. I think he's great because of his ideas, his swing, and his musical personality in general, and his lack of flashy chops doesn't hinder those in the slightest.

Monk can be considered a great technician in the way that he plays Monk. Other pianists have come close to sounding like Art Tatum and Bud Powell. Who has ever really sounded like Monk?

On the other hand, Monk is not a name that comes to mind when you think of virtuosity on the piano in the classical sense of the word.

[Pete C]

If anything Monk was derided for being a poor technician, yet his earliest jam sessions recorded at Minton's & Monroe's show that he was "capable" of much more than he ended up choosing to use. Monk ended up refining a style that suited his music perfectly.

[VIBEr]

You are confusing velocity with technique. Velocity is about speed; technique is about nuance. Monk was a great technician.

[clinthopson]

Duke Elington's phrase certainly fits Monk - "beyond category."

[hans]

Monk has a very unique sense of time and harmony (or dissonance), which he used to maximum effect. He could play just a few notes and give you a feeling. Also he has a very effective use of silence, which he has in common with Miles.

[Clay Fink]

I think he's overrated, much like Coltrane and Armstrong are. I like his fashion sense, though.

[Bill Barton]

monk is monk
clay is clay
everyone will have their opinion
is what i'd say

the Cardinal of Caesura is what i called monk
what he leaves out you can hear today
what he implies IS HERE TO STAY

[Bill Barton]

...and that's why I write reviews, not poetry!

My apologies to David et al.!

[Nate Dorward]

Hey, I've seen worse.

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

Clay's the point man for the Donny Osmond revival. He's got a reputation to uphold.


Nate: Monk was one of the music's greatest composers. I'd guess that his tunes are played more often than anybody else's in modern jazz. They just seem to lend themselves to fruitful interpretations and reinventions. There are whole albums devoted to Monk songs (Steve Lacy, Anthony Braxton, Carmen McRae, two dozen others I guess). I'd suggest listening to Monk's compositions in a variety of settings -- solos, groups with Monk and without him, vocalists, etc. -- and try to get a handle on Monk's works themselves. An adjective I like that I've frequently seen applied to Monk's tunes is "angular." I think that may be another way of saying what Hans said. Personally, I find Monk's songbook to be one of the irrefutable Truths of modern jazz.

[Tom Storer]

Speaking of the Osmonds... click here.

[Clay Fink]

Originally posted by Tom Storer
Speaking of the Osmonds... click here.

I've got that "Osmonds sing the Orrin Hatch Songbook". Good stuff. Makes me stand up and salute.

[Sergio Zamora]

Originally posted by Clay Fink
I've got that "Osmonds sing the Orrin Hatch Songbook". Good stuff. Makes me stand up and salute.

Osmonds - second generation....blah

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

Look what we have devolved to! Apologies to Nate: here's a teenaged drummer who comes to the board asking about Monk, and we wind up with





The left heel is the one with the poisoned stiletto built into it.

[stonemonkts]

Lately it has occurred to me that Charlie Rouse, Monk's longtime bandmate, was better as a sideman for others (Sonny Clark, Donald Byrd, Mal Waldron, et al) than when he was with Monk. This is just my opinion. I think Sonny Rollins, John Coltrane, and Johnny Griffin were much better suited to Monk's music.

I've never objected to Rouse with Monk, per se, but having heard his work with the others I mentioned above, I must say he engages me more when he is NOT in Monk's band.

Is my opinion heresy? Is it just me, perhaps?

[derek]

monk is crazy in a lot of ways. When going through customs at airport, customs opened his suitcase, which was full of empty coke bottles, when asked why? said..." they were returnable."

[Pete C]

Originally posted by stonemonkts
I've never objected to Rouse with Monk, per se, but having heard his work with the others I mentioned above, I must say he engages me more when he is NOT in Monk's band.

Is my opinion heresy? Is it just me, perhaps?

It might be considered heresy by some, but I agree. I'm also not big on the Monk recordings with Griffin.

[clinthopson]

I've always enjoyed Charlie Rouse's work with Monk. To my old ears, they both were in the same groove. I never tire of their work.

I wish Coleman Hawkins would have recorded more with Monk.

I also think that Rouse was a very good fit for Monk. In the band, Rouse devoted himself entirely to Monk's music and conceptions. Monk knew exactly where Rouse was going, and used that information when comping behind him. For my money, some of the most sublime moments in jazz are Monk comping behind Rouse.

Coltrane, Rollins, and Griffin made great and even more challenging situations for Monk, but they didn't surrender themselves to Monk's conceptions in the same way. (IMO)

[Hard Bop Cutter]

Originally posted by clinthopson
I wish Coleman Hawkins would have recorded more with Monk.

Amen to that!...I never like Hawkins all that much, but the two would seem like a fine match.

Then again....I never thought that Blakey and the messengers would ever bond with Monk's playing...but the live at Bohemia recording of them is quite impressive.

Thanks for the response everyone

-Nate

[Bill Barton]

I humbly and respectfully totally disagree that Monk and Charlie Rouse were not one of the all-time great combinations. Tension and release, contrast and shading, yin and yang - it was all there. Ranks up there with Prez and Lady Day, Lacy and Rudd (and a select few others.)

[Leon Harris]

I've read that after Charlie Rouse, Monk had (among others) Paul Jefferies and Pat Patrick in his band on sax. Did Monk ever record with any sax player after Charlie Rouse?

Leon Harris

[MRS]

A. If you 'never like Hawkins much,' you really need to get it fixed.

B. Barton I couldn't agree more per Rouse.

C Great question Leon. . .I don't think so, but any takers?

[moneyp]

Originally posted by stonemonkts
I've never objected to Rouse with Monk, per se, but having heard his work with the others I mentioned above, I must say he engages me more when he is NOT in Monk's band.

Is my opinion heresy? Is it just me, perhaps?

To me, Rouse is the reason for owning Monk's later recordings. He's the star, AFAIC. I never thought Griffin worked that well with Monk, either.

[Tanager]

Count me among those who love the Monk/Rouse sides.

[gnhrtg]

I think that Monk was a genius and that shows both in his compositions and his improvisations. The problem I have is that the guy just wouldn't play - he gave a lot of room to Rouse, and whoever happened to be the rhythm section, and then mostly took rather short solos. That's why I cherish what of his longer solos I come across. I am aware that it might very well be because he, like Coltrane, took as much time as it took to say what he had to say (but, unlike Coltrane, he believed his ideas could be don justice to in a few choruses). So even though I enjoy the way the fellows play (Coltrane, Rouse, Griffin, or Rollins), with monk or elsewhere, I'm always slighlty irritated by how little Monk actually plays (esp. on live recordings and esp. when it's followed by a bass solo thrice the length of his own solo).

[Sergio Zamora]

It seems like we've had a Rouse vs others discussion several times already.

I think Rouse is great, no question, and his sound is a major contribution and a key piece to Monk's sound when he was in his band. Yet, I still find myself going back to the two Griffin albums a lot more.

[stonemonkts]

I like Rouse with Monk just fine. My original point was more along the lines of liking his work more when he was a sideman for others.

I like him with Monk, but I love him with Sonny Clark, Donald Byrd, and Mal Waldron.