Tony Williams

[crawjo]

I've been reading Valerie Wilmer's book on the avant-garde movement, "As Serious As Your Life." In the chapter on drumming, she says the following about Tony Williams:

"Another influential drummer in the sixties was Tony Williams who joined Miles Davis in 1963 at the age of seventeen. Williams was very fashionable though not quite as innovatory as suggested. He took a number of figures and ideas created by his predecessors such as Roy Haynes and assembled them in a way that continues to be influential. For example, his trick of hitting a rimshot between beats came as a surprise and was very appealing. It has been used by countless drummers since. Williams belongs to the tradition of the drummer as showman. He was playing with the hippest band of the day, he was young and looked good and he knew it. Unlike Blackwell, Higgins, and Jones, he did not attempt to hold a conversation with the soloist, rather, he played alongside him and complemented his line with an equally hip one of his own. When he left Davis, he formed a rock-oriented group, Lifetime, in company with organist Larry Young and two British musicians, bassist Jack Bruce and guitarist John McLaughlin, and could no longer be thought of as an influential force in the music."

I'm enjoying Wilmer's book, but this has me very puzzled, to say the least. I'm no expert on drumming, so maybe someone with some knowledge can tell me whether she has a point or not, but from what I hear, Williams was most definitely having a conversation with the soloist (my ears detect this on "Footprints" from Miles Smiles in particular). Also, Williams seemed to be very good at implying the beat. To my ears, his drumming is exquisite: the way he seems to float on the cymbals is exquisite, I think. In fact, I'd say he's an absolutely integral part of Miles' second great quintet, and I have never heard a drummer quite like him. In this passage, which is preceded by a lengthy discussion of the importance of the drums and how drummers like Sonny Murray and Elvin Jones changed the art form, she seems to fluff him off. Is this just jazz politics, since Williams "abandoned" the "music" with his forays into fusion, or does she have a point?

Any thoughts?

[BFrank]

No thoughts specifically, but here's a show that will be WELL worth seeing for anyone who will be in the Bay Area next month.

+++

The Tony Williams Project
With Jack Dejohnette, Larry Goldings & John Scofield
A YOSHI'S EXCLUSIVE! ONLY NORTH AMERICAN APPEARANCE!
Tuesday, February 10 - Sunday, February 15

"Tony was one of the geniuses of the drumset. He had a profound effect on me, personally and musically. So I wanted to celebrate Tony Williams, that's why it is a project instead of a tribute."
- Jack Dejohnette

This special project, featuring the trio of Jack Dejohnette on drums, John Scofield on guitars and Larry Goldings on Hammond B3 and piano, assembled by Dejohnette for this exclusive North American appearance, pays homage to the legendary drummer Tony Williams. The open style that Williams created with the Miles Davis Quintet in the 60s remains very influential, and he had a long list of accomplishments during the decades that followed. From Jackie McLean and Sam Rivers, to Herbie Hancock and Eric Dolphy, Williams performed and recorded on many of the most famous and influential albums of all time. The rhythm section of Williams, Herbie Hancock and Ron Carter is arguably one of the greatest rhythm sections in jazz history. He formed the fusion band Lifetime, with Larry Young and John McLaughlin and the album Emergency is a pillar of jazz fusion. Don't miss this very special event!

[Tom Storer]

I too disclaim any expertise but my own aural impressions, but they tell me Williams did indeed listen carefully and respond to his bandmates. Surely some drummers will come in with some more authoritative words.

I remember a Wallace Roney record I had on vinyl years ago with Williams on drums. There was one song in particular where Williams and Roney were deep in each other's minds, and in listening to the Miles quintet I have noticed plentiful instances of hook-ups and idea exchanges between drums and piano or drums and horns. I wonder how much of an expert Valerie Wilmer really is on drums, and how much of what she wrote came directly from her sources.

As for whether Williams copped things from his predecessors and reassembled them to build a highly influential new sound - that's not good enough? Sheesh. And to say he was in the tradition of "drummer as showman" is ludicrous. The 60's Miles Davis Quintet was all about showmanship? Double sheesh.

[Salvador Dali Lama]

Tony probably did more to help the avant garde than wilmer ever did, but whatever. I enjoyed that book quite a bit, but I disagreed with a lot of the things in it.

I'm very tempted to say Val doesn't know shit about drums. Being a professional drummer myself, I think I can safely say she's so far off base it's barely worth talking about.

Tony also sure as hell wasn't the first drummer to use rimshots between beats. Criminy.

[Ron Thorne]

I'm not hip to Valerie Wilmer's book, but I'm hip to Tony Williams, so I can't resist adding a few words here.

I met and heard Tony Williams play for the first time in 1962 in Boston, not long before he joined Miles' band. He was a young monster with chops and ideas which would (and did) frighten most veterans. To suggest that Tony was a showman first and drummer second is beyond ludicrous. This shows pitiful ignorance on the part of the author. Williams was "fashionable"? What the hell does that mean? That Tony didn't have "conversations with the soloist" is preposterous! It does sound a bit like the author was less than pleased with Tony's foray into fusion with McLaughlin, et al.

I agree with your assessment of Tony's exquisite understanding of and approach to drumming, crawjo. He was a master and innovator of the highest order.

I would never compare myself to someone such as Tony Williams, but we were both fortunate enough to be receiving lessons at the same time from one of the finest teachers/musicians on the planet, Alan Dawson. Tony was living with Max Roach in New York, but commuting to Boston on a regular basis for his sessions with Alan. Here's what Tony had to say about Alan Dawson, which I feel is very reflective of their relationship, and speaks volumes about Tony's respect for his mentor. These are hardly the words of a "showman".

Tony Williams: "Alan Dawson was one of the best drummers in the world. That's a fact, not just my opinion. I met Mr. Dawson when I was nine years old. He went out of his way to encourage me, help me and to see that I had opportunities to develop my meager skills. For example, on Saturday nights he would drive one hundred miles out of his way to pick me up in Roxbury, drive to Cambridge to let me perform with his trio and gain valuable experience, and then return me safely home before returning home himself to Lexington. I was twelve years old. Every drummer, local and worldwide, knew of his legendary speed, precision and control. Mr. Dawson didn't only teach me to play the drums, he taught me how to conduct myself as a musician and as a man. Thank you, Alan Dawson."

[Tom Storer]

Well, there you have it. Williams himself dismisses his "meager skills." Wilmer must be right. ;-)

[stonemonkts]

I would like to add that to my ears Tony Williams was much more heavily influenced by Elvin Jones than Roy Haynes. Jones was definitely the progenitor of Williams' style with the Miles Davis band. That writer is goofy.

I know I've gushed about Williams here on many occasions, but what he did with Ron Carter and Herbie Hancock as Davis' rhythm section is as innovative as anything in jazz. The kid was a genius.

[walto]

Originally posted by Ron Thorne
I'm not hip to Valerie Wilmer's book, but I'm hip to Tony Williams, so I can't resist adding a few words here.

I would never compare myself to someone such as Tony Williams, but we were both fortunate enough to be receiving lessons at the same time from one of the finest teachers/musicians on the planet, Alan Dawson. Tony was living with Max Roach in New York, but commuting to Boston on a regular basis for his sessions with Alan. Here's what Tony had to say about Alan Dawson, which I feel is very reflective of their relationship, and speaks volumes about Tony's respect for his mentor. These are hardly the words of a "showman".

Tony Williams: "Alan Dawson was one of the best drummers in the world. That's a fact, not just my opinion. I met Mr. Dawson when I was nine years old. He went out of his way to encourage me, help me and to see that I had opportunities to develop my meager skills. For example, on Saturday nights he would drive one hundred miles out of his way to pick me up in Roxbury, drive to Cambridge to let me perform with his trio and gain valuable experience, and then return me safely home before returning home himself to Lexington. I was twelve years old. Every drummer, local and worldwide, knew of his legendary speed, precision and control. Mr. Dawson didn't only teach me to play the drums, he taught me how to conduct myself as a musician and as a man. Thank you, Alan Dawson."

Great post, Ron. I just wanted to add that Dawson was also a teacher of my fabulous long time collaborator, Gary Kendig.

[crawjo]

Thanks for the input, guys. I'm glad to hear that my ears weren't deceiving me on this one. Wilmer's book is interesting, but her main weakness is that she is in utter thrall to the group of musicians (many of whom were poor and underrecognized) that she covers in the book. Maybe Tony was just a little too successful for her taste?

[Tom Storer]

Originally posted by stonemonkts
I would like to add that to my ears Tony Williams was much more heavily influenced by Elvin Jones than Roy Haynes. Jones was definitely the progenitor of Williams' style with the Miles Davis band.

Well, with the proviso that I really don't know what I'm talking about, I disagree. I hear Elvin as an element in Tony's mix, but not a heavily predominant one. I hear Williams as cool (despite decibels and complexity) and Elvin as hot. Haynes goes both ways. There's something cerebral and abstract in Haynes that I hear in Tony, whereas Elvin's drumming, despite its sophistication, doesn't give me the same feeling. Did I mention I don't know what I'm talking about?

[Pete C]

I think Miles loved Tony for the "conversations" they had. I don't hear a particular Elvin influence.

[Nate Dorward]

Yeah, I wouldn't take Wilmer too seriously (sic!) in the passage on Tony Williams. One small factual correction: Lifetime was originally just Williams. McLaughlin, Young. Jack Bruce only came in later on, in time for their second album.

[Rob C]

That quote struck me odd when I read Wilmer's book a few years ago, too. But what has always stuck out to me is:

"...he was young and looked good and he knew it."

That's a strange thing to say, and it makes me wonder if there were some more, er, personal reasons for her dismissal of him than she lets on. Pure speculation on my part, of course....

[stonemonkts]

I don't really know what I'm talking about as well.

But to my layman's ears, the way that Williams shifted rhythms during a composition is something I have only heard Jones do prior to Williams.

I agree that Jones is more on the hot side, I know exactly what you mean by that.

I could be way off base on what I "hear". Not that it matters much in this case. I love him like crazy regardless of who influenced him.

On a side note, I really like the other work Hancock, Carter, and Williams did as sidemen just before Miles hired them. Actually, I dig all the work they did during the 60's almost without exception. My tastes in jazz run the gamut but if I had to choose one genre as the one which speaks to me the most, it would be much of what those guys did with (and without) Miles during that period. Same goes for Wayne Shorter.

[Gentle Giant]

"innovatory"???????? That's an innovative way to play with language!

The talk of comparing Tony and Roy brings to mind that my first two Andrew Hill albums were Black Fire (with Haynes) and Point of Departure (with Williams). I often listen to those two albums side by side and boy, it's definitely the drumming that sets them apart. Of course, the latter has Dolphy, too, which can't be overlooked, but that's also where the avant-garde thing becomes more pronounced. While both drummers give powerful and exciting performances (and it would not be useful or possible to say which is "better"), what Tony does on Point of Departure is really stunning. He's not playing strictly time but he's not off on his own little world, either. Somehow he manages to be very independent and yet an integral part of the collective at the same time. It's very intense, and one of my favorite recordings of his.

BTW, I just love hearing Alan Dawson's name mentioned. The Boston club scene misses his varied but always scintillating appearances.

[Ron Thorne]

"Innovatory" also struck me as odd, GG. In fact, I remarked about it in my post initially, but edited it out.

Thanks, Walto.

I'm very passionate about certain players and people, and at the top of my short list are Alan Dawson, Tony Williams and Jim Pepper, in no particular order. Each of them were gone long before we had enjoyed and appreciated them sufficiently, too. I miss each of them tremendously, but savor their recorded contributions and my sublime memories of our times together.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone approach a drumset with more total independence than either Alan or Tony ... period. Roy Haynes is another of my all-time favorite drummers, too.

[VIBEr]

Originally posted by Nate Dorward
Yeah, I wouldn't take Wilmer too seriously (sic!) in the passage on Tony Williams. One small factual correction: Lifetime was originally just Williams. McLaughlin, Young. Jack Bruce only came in later on, in time for their second album.

This is an opportunity for me to ask something I've wondered about for some time. I know that Jack Bruce was a later member of Lifetime and is credited on the album Turn It Over, but I tend to hear organ pedals more than electric bass on that particular record. Varying accounts credit Bruce with only playing on one track, but the mix is so muddy that my ears really can't discern. Does anyone know the real deal on this?

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

I'm surprised Larry Nagel hasn't weighed in here.

There's a nice piece about Roy Haynes in the December issue of Smithsonian, including this great shot of Haynes with Bird, Monk and Mingus.

[Pete C]

Originally posted by VIBEr
This is an opportunity for me to ask something I've wondered about for some time. I know that Jack Bruce was a later member of Lifetime and is credited on the album Turn It Over, but I tend to hear organ pedals more than electric bass on that particular record. Varying accounts credit Bruce with only playing on one track, but the mix is so muddy that my ears really can't discern. Does anyone know the real deal on this?

This source linked below claims that Bruce plays only on 4 tunes. I'm not sure what his source was, but it makes sense. I think I read somewhere that Bruce was brought in for the second of two sessions for the album, and that's what this info confirms.

http://keeny.net/jackbruce/lifetime.shtml

[shrugs]

Just listen to the My Funny Valentine/Four And More concerts and you'll see he was deep in with the soloists from the his earliest with Miles. I can't wait for Mosaic to release the lp set.

[shrugs]

Must have been something else. I love the fire on the dates I mentioned which resulted from Miles volunteering the band to play for free. I agree with Miles that this was George Coleman's best performance ever.

[hearsay]

That really is some pedantic, silly shit from Wilmer. I don't know wether she is some how predjudiced against Williams or if that is just ignorance, she is pretty vague on actual knowledge of why or why not Williams was "innovatory". Anyway, did she ever hear "Out to Lunch"?

On a side note, I grew up in Lexington and used to see Alan Dawson riding his bike around. OUr music teacher knew him and he came to the high school a few times, he really was an amazing musician and a great person.

[Gary Sisco]

Absolute nonsense. Tony Williams changed jazz drumming (indeed, drumming) forever. He's one in the line of great jazz drummers going all the way back, bar none. Sam Rivers talks about playing free with Tony when he was just a kid. They'd completely improvise for hours, in public, before he ever left Boston.

Elvin was a heavy influence on Tony Williams. I read a story once where he was talking about when he first started listening to Elvin Jones. I can't remember which cat told the story but it was one who knew him while he was still living with his folks. He'd put on a record and go berserk, with all the drumming going on, and ask "Who's playing the cymbals?" It blew his mind, apparently, that someone could be playing those rhythms with only one hand while still dealing with the cymbals in a creative fashion. We know what he did with that insight, once gained, and jazz was never the same again.

The thing I love most about him (and he was my favorite of all, til Hamid Drake, who's now my favorite) is how he played in time but didn't play time.

Tony didn't interact with the others? Has this writer even listened to those records? Jeesh. He merely "assembled" things other drummers had done, to make his own style? Well, duh. What else has anyone ever done? There's only 12 notes in the euro-scale. How many different things have been done with them? Duh?

I don't believe any drummer before him ever used a high hat the way he did with Miles, though, among other "innovatory" things.

[Gentle Giant]

Originally posted by Gary Sisco
Elvin was a heavy influence on Tony Williams. I read a story once where he was talking about when he first started listening to Elvin Jones. I can't remember which cat told the story but it was one who knew him while he was still living with his folks. He'd put on a record and go berserk, with all the drumming going on, and ask "Who's playing the cymbals?" It blew his mind, apparently, that someone could be playing those rhythms with only one hand while still dealing with the cymbals in a creative fashion.

Elvin on a ride is one of my favorite sounds in jazz. I have a Miles/Trane video compilation with Trane's band playing Impressions from the early 60s and Elvin's right hand is just a wonder to watch.