Who's the Most Overrated

[crawjo]

I'm bored. It's Tuesday. Time for a poll!

Feel free to justify your response in a post below.

[mke]

Over-rated by whom?

[Pete C]

Who voted for Ornette?

[mtaylorjazz]

i like that you even included that last option

Circle Squared @ CDBaby

[crawjo]

Well, we seem to be pretty much in agreement. I am a jackass for asking this question.

I figured that would be the response. What can I say, I was bored this morning and was just curious to see what would happen if I threw a poll like that up there.

[Sergio Zamora]

Originally posted by Pete C
Who voted for Ornette?

I bet it was Clint.

[crawjo]

There are two Ornette Coleman nay-sayers out there? What's up, fellas? Why not make an argument? Also, for the four people who listed "Other" feel free to chime in with who the "other" might be.

As for me, I thought about it, came back and decided that I was a jackass.

If this was the 30s, 40s, or 50s, I would vote for Benny Goodman. On the other hand, I would say that Goodman today is probably underrated by jazz fans.

I actually comitted the worst of all possible sins and voted for Duke Ellington. That is NOT because I don't love Duke or think of him as one of the greatest jazz artists of all time. But I do think that there is a tendency in the critical establishment today to put Duke far ahead of all other jazz artists. I don't agree with that. With respect to musical sophistication, maybe. But I think that there are a few other jazz artists who have made just as lasting a contribution.

[graypencil]

I was torn between other and the jackass response

however ..I chose "Other"

because my two big time overrated picks weren't listed:

Winnie ..and James Carter ..

but then again : WTFDIK??

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Originally posted by crawjo
As for me, I thought about it, came back and decided that I was a jackass.

Yep, that got my vote too....

[Jon Abbey]

I voted for Benny Goodman, simply because I've never enjoyed his music. I thought about voting for Ornette, because as some people here are understandably sick of hearing me say, I think he's been resting on his laurels for close to 40 years now. but his series of Atlantic records was such a huge accomplishment, just incredible music (the small group sessions, I never really connected to 'Free Jazz") that I decided that outweighed my doubts about his work since then.

[stonemonkts]

Originally posted by graypencil
I was torn between other and the jackass response

however ..I chose "Other"

because my two big time overrated picks weren't listed:

Winnie ..and James Carter ..

but then again : WTFDIK??

You nailed my vote exactly, except I'm not sure Carter is rated all that high to begin with, but definitely Winniepoo.

[Pete C]

I voted other. One of them would be Hank Mobley. Not that there's anything wrong with him, but I find it strange how he's been almost deified by some in recent years. Interesting case of an artist who went from woefully underrated to woefully overrated.

[Dan G]

It's almost impossible not to vote Other here, since there are lots of musicians who are over-rated (if it were a write-in, I'd be putting the Maneri family there).

Regarding Jon's comment about Ornette, it's hard not to agree that nothing he has done since, oh, probably the Golden Circle recordings, would merit the praise he has garnered throughout most of his life, does anyone really think of much beyond the Atlantic era when they hear his name? I doubt it. Its easier to just pretend Prime Time didn't exist, and be happy for what we had. In the same way that we should think of Sonny Rollins.

As for anyone voting for Ellington...I don't get it. I can't imagine where we would be without him. In terms of piano, without him I can't imagine that we'd have Monk or Nichols (and from them, Mengelberg and Schlippenbach) or Cecil Taylor. I don't know if any of them would admit it (well, Misha might), but its easy to hear Duke's influence on them. And then there's the writing... I just don't get how anyone could say he's overrated...

[Brian Olewnick]

Originally posted by Dan G
Regarding Jon's comment about Ornette, it's hard not to agree that nothing he has done since, oh, probably the Golden Circle recordings, would merit the praise he has garnered throughout most of his life, does anyone really think of much beyond the Atlantic era when they hear his name?

Yeah, me. We've hashed and rehashed this here before, but I think albums like "Crisis" and "Science Fiction" hold with his best work. I too tend to jump the wagon by the mid-70s, but still find flashes of brilliance here and there (actually, the Prime Time release, "Jazzbuhne '88" is pretty good), especially his playing ont he 'Naked Lunch' soundtrack.

[frankiepop]

i think we are overrating benny when he is included with the group above.

jazz fans may dismiss benny too soon by forgetting or overlooking how good his recording with hampton, Wilson, & krupa were. they may be some of the best recordings of swing or even chamber music of the last century. i also really like some of the recordings with charlie christian....

goodman must also have the most compilations of recordings ever made.

[james harrigan]

Originally posted by Jon Abbey
.. I thought about voting for Ornette, because as some people here are understandably sick of hearing me say, I think he's been resting on his laurels for close to 40 years now. but his series of Atlantic records was such a huge accomplishment, just incredible music (the small group sessions, I never really connected to 'Free Jazz")...

I agree with every single word of this. My only difference with Jon is that I pulled the trigger and voted for Ornette in the poll. For me the clincher is his violin and trumpet "playing", and using Denardo in his bands, which strikes me as either total self-delusion or disrespect for his audience.

One could say much the same about Sonny Rollins or Herbie Hancock. I am not sure I understand why that means that they are overrated. Myself, I don't consider Ornette overrated at all. I think that he is plain and simply one of the most important, unique, and moving voices in all of jazz. I agree that his best work on record dates from before the mid-70s. So what? That is a huge body of work, creativity sufficient for 100 lifetimes. I have also seen him give tremendous concerts after that time. To call him overrated for some recent works that might be less than stellar is the same as saying that he is overrated because he didn't die in 1975.

As for my vote for Duke Ellington, I tried to explain myself above. The term "overrated" is a relative one. I understand a personal view about who is "overrated" to be the following thought experiment: If we could imagine a "ranking" of jazz artists by greatness in the eyes of the mainstream critical establishment, who would score higher in that ranking than in your personal ranking? Clearly, Duke Ellington would be the runaway winner in the critic poll. Nobody else, except maybe Louis Armstrong and Bird, would even come close. Duke Ellington has come to be virtually deified in the critical establishment to the point where it can't even be suggested that people like Monk and Mingus could be his equal. That is where I disagree.

[Pete C]

Originally posted by John L
Duke Ellington has come to be virtually deified in the critical establishment to the point where it can't even be suggested that people like Monk and Mingus could be his equal. That is where I disagree.

Excellent point!

[Pete C]

Originally posted by Brian Olewnick
I think albums like "Crisis" and "Science Fiction" hold with his best work.

Based on what I saw earlier this year, so does his current quartet with Greg Cohen, Tony Falanga, and Denardo. There should be some recorded proof forthcoming. There was a rumor that the Carnegie concert was recorded, and I also heard they went into the studio.

Sure I'd prefer another drummer, but I guess Ornette likes working with family (Denardo is also the business manager).

Ornette's current playing is at its most lyrical, and the 2 bass lineup provides an interesting new context.

Considering his paradigm-shifting influence on jazz in general, regardless of where you stand on his later work, I'd say he's underrated if anything.

[james harrigan]

Originally posted by John L
One could say much the same about Sonny Rollins or Herbie Hancock.

and I do! Like Ornette, Rollins also hasn't made great music since the 1960s. What bugs me about Rollins' reputation is when people like Gary Giddins say that he is currently the greatest tenor player - I could easily name a dozen tenor players, young and old, off the top of my head who are making more compelling music than Rollins these days. I'm less familiar with Hancock's playing over the years, but I also suspect that he wouldn't crack my top 10 pianists based on what he's currently playing. Generally, there's too much hero-worship among jazz listeners, and as a consequence the contemporary work of the still-living heros tends to get overrated.

your mileage may vary.

[walto]

I'm with Brian on this, and I'd add Ornette's "Skies of America" which I've always liked--in spite of any bogus "theories" underlying the compositional techniques. Love the "Naked Lunch" score.

[Pete C]

I contend that Rollins has made 2 great albums since the 60's, about 25 years apart.

[Brian Olewnick]

Walt, you're right, I inadvertantly left out "Skies" (which is sublime) and Pete, I also agree that "The Everywhere Calypso" and "Skylark" from 'Next Album' are, imho, about as great as anything Rollins has recorded.

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

No votes for Miles yet? I can fix that.

[Frisco]

Originally posted by Dan G
It's almost impossible not to vote Other here, since there are lots of musicians who are over-rated (if it were a write-in, I'd be putting the Maneri family there).

Yeah, after the Maneri's sold their first million records they were never the same.

Originally posted by Frisco
Yeah, after the Maneri's sold their first million records they were never the same.

[crawjo]

As for the "Other" category, you should note that the question asks which jazz LEGEND is most overrated...of course, who is or who isn't a legend can be debated, as well, but it does narrow the field. There are plenty of other names I could have included on the list: Billie Holliday, Monk, Marsalis (but I knew if I put his name down he'd get nearly all the votes, aside from the votes for me being a jackass), Bill Evans, etc.

[Jon Abbey]

it was an interesting poll as written, don't make apologies. Wynton's hardly a legend, in his own time or any other.

[Dan G]

Originally posted by Frisco
Yeah, after the Maneri's sold their first million records they were never the same.

Well, I don't remember ever seeing a bad review of either Joe or Mat, both of whom have put out quite a few albums in the past decade. And maybe other people would agree with all the accolades, but anyone who gets consistently positive reviews is probably over-rated - everyone screws up once in a while. And personally, I really don't like the music they make.