Poll on post-1975 Miles

Nick · January-22nd-2004, 12:30 AM

I'm just curious about opinions around here on the post retirement recordings of Miles Davis.

walto · January-22nd-2004, 09:12 AM

Actually, I don't care too much for anything after 1973. (Sorry, Laz!)

shrugs · January-22nd-2004, 09:40 PM

We Want Miles!

Squaredancecalling Steve · January-23rd-2004, 05:40 AM

I became a fan of Miles when I was 14, with "Porgy and Bess" in 1958, and then "Kind of Blue"came out the next year and I followed him after that, for another ten years.

With "In A Silent Way" (1969) I knew he was beginning to lose my interest (I like the album better now than I did then), and with "Bitches' Brew" (later the same year) I parted company with Miles for good. I admit I haven't heard a lot of the later material, but what I have heard hasn't encouraged me to hear more.

lazarus · January-23rd-2004, 06:06 AM

I´m a total fanatic when it comes to Miles music from the 70´s.
If I have to choose my favorite music I´ll say the music of Miles "Agharta-group". I was fortunate to see them back in 1973 and it was the concert of my life.

I also saw him in 1982 with the "We Want Miles" group and it was also a fantastic concert but the studio-albums from the 80´s , especially after "Star People" was really not my cup of tea but he continued to do inspired live-gigs through the 80´s.

As a result of my obsession with 70´s Miles I bought the Complete Montreaux-box only because two of the cd´s are recorded in 1973 (and, hmm, 18 from the 80´s) and I must say that some of the 80´s concerts contains very inspired music.

Walt and SquaredancecallingSteve: I demand you to start to listen to Miles live trilogy "Dark Magus", "Pangaea" and "Agharta" (recorded between 1973 - 75)!

Squaredancecalling Steve · January-23rd-2004, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lazarus

Walt and SquaredancecallingSteve: I demand you to start to listen to Miles live trilogy "Dark Magus", "Pangaea" and "Agharta" (recorded between 1973 - 75)!

OK, laz, just for you. I'll give a listen to one of them. I know I was completely ignoring him in favor of Cecil and Rahsaan by then, so I might not have ever heard these.

walto · January-23rd-2004, 06:57 AM

I don't hate those recordings, Laz, but I much prefer the ones that immediately precede them, esp. "Fillmore" with the Jarrett and Corea. That's my fave. I get bored with the trio of recordings you mention. A little too "smooth" I guess: not nearly so much going on.

I did catch him at great concert around that period, though.

BTW, I think "Processor" has some great stuff on it. I might shave a couple of cuts, but it's really good!

SinginSumo · January-23rd-2004, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Squaredancecalling Steve
I became a fan of Miles when I was 14, with "Porgy and Bess" in 1958, and then "Kind of Blue"came out the next year and I followed him after that, for another ten years.

With "In A Silent Way" (1969) I knew he was beginning to lose my interest (I like the album better now than I did then), and with "Bitches' Brew" (later the same year) I parted company with Miles for good. I admit I haven't heard a lot of the later material, but what I have heard hasn't encouraged me to hear more.

Fantastic post, Steve. Thank you for the utter courage to post such "heresy." I've felt that Miles' records starting with "Bitches Brew" and those beyond were a matter of so many telling me how great Miles' music has continued to be (while I had felt consistently that the newer stuff is anything but absorbing and that the Emperor Wasn't Wearing Clothes for decades before his death). Hair plugs, sequins & capes, the embrace of the rock 'n' roll persona, empty music - oh come on!

walto · January-23rd-2004, 09:13 AM

I hardly think that the claim that the quality of Miles' ouput dropped preciptously after (or around) "In a Silent Way" is brave heresy. If it's not the prevailing view today (and it may still be), it certainly was for many years.

SinginSumo · January-23rd-2004, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by walto
I hardly think that the claim that the quality of Miles' ouput dropped preciptously after (or around) "In a Silent Way" is brave heresy. If it's not the prevailing view today (and it may still be), it certainly was for many years.

Walter - I'm fastening my seatbelt in anticipation of an onslaught of disagreement.

Brian Olewnick · January-23rd-2004, 09:52 AM

Not quite an onslaught, but the next best thing.....

Jason Bivins · January-23rd-2004, 09:53 AM

"Processor" is hot!

And I concur with Laz about those three recordings in particular. Pete Cosey, baby!

Walt, I can see arguing for a drop but a precipitous one?

SinginSumo · January-23rd-2004, 09:56 AM

Cardinal sin, Bri'? (Don Slaught wasn't a Card, was he??)

Brian Olewnick · January-23rd-2004, 10:24 AM

Cardinal Sin (I'm not kidding) is--or at least was--he might've recently resigned--the Archbishop of the Philippines....

I think he briefly played electric bass in one of Miles' later bands. Just to bring the thread back on topic.

walto · January-23rd-2004, 10:57 AM

Hey, Prof, I'M certainly not arguing for it!!!! I already said my favorite releases are post "Silent Way." I'm just saying that a whole lot of people think so and have said so loudly and publicly for a long time. It's hardly "heresy"--even if I don't agree with it.

Jason Bivins · January-23rd-2004, 11:23 AM

Whew . . . now that's the Walt I know!

walto · January-23rd-2004, 12:11 PM

Probably the wrong word.

Chris D · January-23rd-2004, 12:59 PM

I like bits of "Tutu," "Amandla" and "Aura," but overall I can take or leave this stuff.

lazarus · January-23rd-2004, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by walto

BTW, I think "Processor" has some great stuff on it. I might shave a couple of cuts, but it's really good!

Thank you very much Walto. It means a lot to me that people whose musical tastes I respect as much as yours (and Jasons) likes my (and my bandmates) music.
I know that not everything on these two cd´s are up to standard. I would never consider to make an official release of all this material in this form and maybe I should have edited it bit more before I posted it to you. But what the heck! This is typical Processor improvisations. It gives a pretty fair picture of how we sounds.
I have also found some material I regret very much that I have not included. For example cut 2 on cd 1 is only the first 6 minutes of a 30 minutes improvisation that I think is very good from beginning to end. Maybe i will post the complete improvisation to you later if you are interested.

Sorry folks for occupy the thread with this stuff.
Back to Miles!!!!!!!

martini · January-24th-2004, 02:16 PM

I voted in the “some of it is interesting” camp. I’m a solid Miles fan, but some (certainly not all)of the 80s stuff is pretty weak. It was a little painful to hear him play that Cyndi Lauper tune “Time After Time.” I remember changing the radio station immediately when I heard him play that tune, just so I could keep my buddy who was with me (and whom I was trying to get interested in jazz) from knowing it was Miles Davis playing. I didn’t want that lousy tune to soil his perception of Miles.

I love pretty much everything Miles did, from his early works with Bird to the dense, swampy fusion of the early 1970s. But when he retired in the mid-70s that was it. From then on, the great explorer decided to stay on the ground where it was safe rather than scale mountains with his sonic sculptures.

Jon Abbey · January-24th-2004, 02:29 PM

I've only ever heard Doo-Bop of the post-1975 stuff, and even that not for many years, so I'm passing on the original question.

but as for Miles' electric period, from my perspective it's pretty clear that his releases continued to get closer to what he was trying to achieve as he got closer to 1975, culminating with the three Lazarus mentioned (some other great ones along the way, of course). I don't want to get into a racial discussion, but I don't think it's a coincidence that Miles' bands went from mostly white to all black (I think, I'm not looking it up) over this period. for me, Miles went out on an incredible high note in 1975 with Agharta/Pangaea, I just pretend everything subsequently didn't happen.

FWIW, I've never liked Bitches Brew, although I didn't hear it until 20 years after it was released. I've always liked In a Silent Way a lot, I think it might have been the first jazz record I owned, that, A Love Supreme, and Kind of Blue were definitely the first three.

walto · January-24th-2004, 02:51 PM

Interesting. I love "Jack Johnson" and at least enjoy "On the Corner" quite a bit--while the Laz three seem, I don't know, less inspired or something, to me. I don't know the racial complexion of the bands off the top of my head either.

Pete C · January-24th-2004, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Squaredancecalling Steve
With "In A Silent Way" (1969) I knew he was beginning to lose my interest (I like the album better now than I did then), and with "Bitches' Brew" (later the same year) I parted company with Miles for good. I admit I haven't heard a lot of the later material, but what I have heard hasn't encouraged me to hear more.

Knowing the catholicity and integrity of your taste, I'm surprised. Have you listened to Live Evil or On the Corner recently?

Nick · January-24th-2004, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon Abbey
I've only ever heard Doo-Bop of the post-1975 stuff, and even that not for many years, so I'm passing on the original question.

but as for Miles' electric period, from my perspective it's pretty clear that his releases continued to get closer to what he was trying to achieve as he got closer to 1975, culminating with the three Lazarus mentioned (some other great ones along the way, of course). I don't want to get into a racial discussion, but I don't think it's a coincidence that Miles' bands went from mostly white to all black (I think, I'm not looking it up) over this period. for me, Miles went out on an incredible high note in 1975 with Agharta/Pangaea, I just pretend everything subsequently didn't happen.

FWIW, I've never liked Bitches Brew, although I didn't hear it until 20 years after it was released. I've always liked In a Silent Way a lot, I think it might have been the first jazz record I owned, that, A Love Supreme, and Kind of Blue were definitely the first three.

Jon

I totally agree with the second paragraph of your post (up until the last few words) but if all you've heard after 75 is Doo-Bop you've really heard nothing. I've always though 'We Want Miles' wasn't nearly as far removed from the Agharta/Pangea sound as its reputation would have you believe. It's the one 80's disc that should at least be heard once by people who dig his 70's work and have dismissed his 80's stuff. I'm pretty much a love-it-all Miles nut and even I don't like Doo-Bop.

Nick · January-24th-2004, 11:16 PM

Does anyone have a picture they can post of the 74-75 band with Lucas and Cozy? I don't think I've ever seen one.

mke · January-25th-2004, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon Abbey
I don't want to get into a racial discussion, but I don't think it's a coincidence that Miles' bands went from mostly white to all black (I think, I'm not looking it up) over this period.

I found this comment odd enough to go downstairs and pull out some CDs, as I find it hard to think of any period when Miles's regular band was mostly white, apart from the short-lived Birth of the Cool band, perhaps.

2nd Quinet - 5/5 Black.

IASW - 4/7 .

BB - 8/13.

Live-Evil - 7/13, not counting the two Brasilians Moreira and Pascoal

1973 Olympia concert - 5/6, not counting Reggie Lucas (unsure)

Pangea - 6/6, still not counting Lucas

mke · January-25th-2004, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nick
Does anyone have a picture they can post of the 74-75 band with Lucas and Cozy? I don't think I've ever seen one.

There are some in "Dark Magus."

Pete C · January-25th-2004, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon Abbey
for me, Miles went out on an incredible high note in 1975 with Agharta/Pangaea,

And once again we have a case of the music being virtually unknown in the U.S. for what, at least 15 years until they were released here.

I was mentioning apropos of one of the box sets that the original release history of Miles' music gives a very incomplete sense of his trajectory, something that has been remedied only recently.

Pete C · January-25th-2004, 11:29 AM

Mwanji, your racial balance sheet is based on collective album personnel, not working bands.

In working bands you have the 2nd quintet followed by Shorter-Corea-Holland-Dejohnette, then adding Airto, then replacing Shorter with, I believe, Steve Grossman, then, I think, replacing Holland with Henderson, adding Jarrett for 2 keyboards, then Corea leaving, etc.

At any rate, I don't think the race of the individual players means anything. Booker T & the MGs, for instance, was a 1/2-white all-black band.

Jon Abbey · January-25th-2004, 11:51 AM

mke, I'm not talking about the second quintet, that's a different period. BB and ISAW are studio projects, I was more talking about his live bands of that era, specifically on At Fillmore and Black Beauty, his live bands in 1970.

At Fillmore:

Miles Davis _-_ Trumpet
Jack DeJohnette _-_ Drums
Dave Holland _-_ Bass (Electric), Guitar (Bass), Bass (Acoustic)
Keith Jarrett _-_ Organ
Steve Grossman _-_ Sax (Soprano)
Airto Moreira _-_ Percussion

Black Beauty:

same band except Corea instead of Jarrett.

Pete, I came to this music around 1988-1990, and Agharta and Pangaea were some of the only electric Miles discs widely available at that time, along with Jack Johnson and maybe a couple others. I don't think I knew until you posted that they weren't available at the time.

seeing Pete's post now, I really, really, really don't want to argue about race, but I highly doubt there were any white players in James Brown's bands of that era or P-Funk, Booker T and the MG's isn't the same thing. I think the racial composition of these specific bands is interesting to note because to my ears, it's an instance where the results of the music perfectly fit with the prevailing stereotypes.