Very Sad

[crawjo]

Maybe people already know this, but the Washington Post has an ongoing "Faces of the Fallen" feature on their web site that provides some personal information and pictures to go with the numbers who have died in Operation Iraqi Freedom.

I think that anyone who supports the war, as I continue to do, should take a moment to go through the list and reflect.

[Paul B]

Nice to know you love war so much.

Those who support Americans dying for a cabal of oil barons and a lying president should indeed take a look.

As should those with even a whiff of morality in their lives who disagreed with the war.

Bye-ya.

[crawjo]

Paul B,

I don't love war any more than Pete Seeger loved war when he sang patriotic songs about getting a machine gun and fighting the Nazis.

[Paul B]

At least Mr. Seeger was supporting a justified war.

War for war's sake and revenge--which is basically what the recent conflict was--is a far different matter.

Bye-ya.

[crawjo]

I'm not going to be baited into a tennis match over the war again, not for this thread. I've stated my position numerous times. I just wanted to post this so people could take a look at those who are sacrificing their lives right now.

[Paul B]

No need for a tennis match. People should go to the link, as the soldiers have indeed sacrificed their lives. Sadly, the sacrifice was for the ego of a group of hawks who care not for anything but their agenda. It's a bitter pill; hopefully people in this country will start to emerge from the haze of stupidity that led them to be behind such an immoral endeavor.

Bye-ya.

[shrugs]

Pictures do tell stories but why not go down to the local Armed Forces recruiter and see if you can join. If you support it so much, they might be able to use your help.

[Salvador Dali Lama]

shrugs here has a purty good point. just for the record, all the vets and current members of the us armed forces on this site are anti-war, aren't they? if not, the majority seem to be.

which is interesting, especially since every vet I know (a few of whom fought in the first Iraq war) is decidently against this current war. granted, in all, this is probably like what, 8 people.

make of it what you will, but I think it's kind of noteworthy.

[crawjo]

Actually, shrugs, if you must know I have a preexisting medical condition that would almost certainly disqualify me from the Armed Services.

One of my best friends just served a tour of duty in Afghanistan. I have great respect for the soldiers now toiling overseas, but we should also remember that this is something they chose to do. These guys knew the risks they were taking when they joined up. The risk is a part of the job, I'm afraid.

After he came back home, I asked my friend, who is a platoon leader, whether he thought the country should consider reinstituting the draft. He was most decidedly against it. He thinks that draftees would only be truly helpful in support staff type roles, and not in combat.

For what it's worth.

Draftees did quite well in previous wars--why would this one be different in that respect?

[Jazzzoline]

On the website you posted... I noticed little guys of 18, 21, 24 y/o. I'm not so sure they actually had the choice. They probably needed a job badly.

Originally posted by Jazzzoline
On the website you posted... I noticed little guys of 18, 21, 24 y/o. I'm not so sure they actually had the choice. They probably needed a job badly.

Good point. That is absolutely a factor--Bush has managed to lose so many jobs that it is inevitable that we find people joining up as a reluctantly taken alternative.

[crawjo]

I think my friend's feeling is that the training and equipment is now more sophisticated, and that it requires more of a commitment on the part of the soldier. He thinks that, especially post-Vietnam, having draftees in combat would weaken morale, without significantly improving the Army's effectiveness. He knows a lot more about it than I do. He went to West Point and has had a lot of training, and he's one of the smartest people I know, so I give a lot of weight to his opinions.

Chris, I don't think it is fair to say that Bush is the reason that 18 year olds are in the Army. 18 year olds have always been in the Army, because it is a good way of getting experience and having your college education paid for. Is there any evidence that their numbers are increasing because they have nowhere else to go? That's an honest question, I'm not trying to be argumentative. If there is evidence, I'd like to see it.

Originally posted by crawjo
Is there any evidence that their numbers are increasing because they have nowhere else to go? That's an honest question, I'm not trying to be argumentative. If there is evidence, I'd like to see it.

It is just an impression I have formed after hearing this mentioned in numerous interviews with parents of military personnel. It makes sense that young people with inadequate education and little or no prospect of getting a decent job would opt for the military. I'm sure someone has taken a survey--I'll look for one.

[al j]

wow, nice thread. Some of the comments are further evidence to how small some of your worlds really are. Paul, I get from your posts that the only stance you're comfortable with anyone having is the one against war. It also seems like you think those of us that support it aren't very intelligent and perhaps even immoral.

Chris, there is certainly some link now, as there always is, between the economy and the number of enlistees. But that ratio pretty much stays the same, whether in peace or war. You'll find that volunteer enlistments are always significantly higher during war than in peace, and it has little to do with the economy.

Why the suggestion that "little guys" between the ages of 18-24 may not have had a choice in joining the service? What is the connection there? Is a job in the military really viewed upon by the non-vets as a last resort? No doubt that it is for some of us, but you could say the same about people sitting on their ass soaking up welfare.

I've been patient with the ignorance at this board toward the military for years now, but it's really getting bad these days.

Absolutely genius post, Joe.

Unfortunately for Paul, he has a great deal of growing up to do, and has no clue that he needs to.

The point about joining the military because there was no choice is rediculous and demeaning.

Here's a newsflash Chris, low paying and entry level jobs were NOT the jobs that were lost. Employers are more than happy to pay young kids fresh out of highschool much less money than someone with 10-20 years experience who would demand a higher salary. Thats simple math for anyone who isn't out of touch with the work place.

[GoodSpeak]

Originally posted by crawjo
Actually, shrugs, if you must know I have a preexisting medical condition that would almost certainly disqualify me from the Armed Services.

Interesting, Crawjo.


GEE Dubya had the same problem.


A preexisting notion that Daddy would bail his ass out of any real Vietnam era service.




You could be brothers.





















Who knew?

That was uncalled for, Tim.

[GoodSpeak]

How so?

Crawjo continually rags on the Left all the while reserving for himself an easy out in case he's called on his bullshit.


And I'm calling him on it.


Right here...right now.

As a friend I just thought I'd point out that you are heading over the line. Take from it what you will.

[GoodSpeak]

I appreciate the concern, Scott.


Really I do.



I just cannot abide a wholesale condemnation of anyone upon the simple basis of the sheer wieght in numbers of war dead while Bush got off scot free as a member of the Texas Air National Guard.

[Saving the World from an Oklahoma insurgence, no doubt]




There is no connection between Crawjo's claim and the reality of those who had no choice, but to die in war, my friend.

[crawjo]

Scott,

I don't know why you're starting to notice this now. Half the shit Tim says is "uncalled for." But what the hell, he's calling for it, so I guess it's alright with him.

Goody, I'm six feet seven inches tall. In high school I could have been a decent power forward in basketball, or played football. However, I could not play either of these sports (much to my dismay) because I could not get medical clearance. I'm not going to give you my medical history, but I have a hereditary condition that is extremely rare, that only a few doctors in the world even study. My sister almost died from it when she was 16 years old. It was judged serious enough that I was not allowed to play any contact sports of any kind, after it was detected when I was 13. Thus, I think it is reasonable to presume that if doctors don't think it is safe for me to play a freaking basketball game, they aren't going to think it is safe for me to join the Army and go through basic training. Pretty simple. That's just the way life is.

I tried to start this thread just to honor these very brave men and women who are dying for their country right now. It had been suggested that those who supported the war somehow don't care about the people who are dying. Well, I do care. I know people who are over there, and even if I didn't, I can imagine how tough it must be. I clicked through as many of those names and faces this afternoon as I could, before it was just too overwhelming for me. What does one say in the face of such sacrifice? I wanted to start this thread so that people would have the opportunity to reflect, the same way one reflects at the Vietnam War Memorial. If you believe in the war, then reflect on the sacrifice that these young men and women are making, and the tragedy of each lost life. If you don't believe in the war, then reflect on the truly terrible tragedy of their deaths in the name of a cause you believe to be corrupt. But either way, reflect. Pray if you are so inclined. That's why I started this thread. Just to draw attention to what is happening in the world.

I am disappointed, but I guess not surprised, that some of the nonsense that pollutes these threads has been brought to this one as well.

The comments re crawjo's condition were indeed uncalled for, IMO.

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

Consider the source.

[Uli]

Originally posted by crawjo
These guys knew the risks they were taking when they joined up. The risk is a part of the job, I'm afraid.

I really don't know about that. They must be smarter than most people I know. I for one would not have thought it possible that the US illegally invade a country based on bad and sexed up intelligence.

[walto]

I don't know, Uli. Remember, some of these guys probably enlisted AFTER Bush became president.

[Uli]

You've got a point there, Walto.

[shrugs]

Originally posted by crawjo
Actually, shrugs, if you must know I have a preexisting medical condition that would almost certainly disqualify me from the Armed Services.

One of my best friends just served a tour of duty in Afghanistan. I have great respect for the soldiers now toiling overseas, but we should also remember that this is something they chose to do. These guys knew the risks they were taking when they joined up. The risk is a part of the job, I'm afraid.

After he came back home, I asked my friend, who is a platoon leader, whether he thought the country should consider reinstituting the draft. He was most decidedly against it. He thinks that draftees would only be truly helpful in support staff type roles, and not in combat.

For what it's worth.

Well I am sorry to hear that. All the more reason for you to realize that life is precious and this war is stoopid. It cemented my decision to leave the navy after almost 10 years of service. The statement about draftees is suspect due to the fact that any draftee along with any new recruit would go through tons of schooling and training before ever hitting the sand or sea. Hell, I know there are a lot of guys who joined the submarine force after 9/11 that may just be getting to their first submarine right about now.

[crawjo]

Yeah, any 18 or 19-year-old in the Armed Services now joined up after 9/11, when it became increasingly clear that U.S. servicemen and women were going to be put in harm's way more and more. Obviously, the reasons these kids joined up are going to vary. Some I'm sure did it for economic reasons, or to get a college education paid for. Some, I'm sure, did it out of patriotism, some because they were looking for an adventure, or were always attracted to the Army. Some probably did it because they have a family history of service in the Armed services. It's going to vary. Whatever the reason, though, going through the faces on the Post's web site, each loss stings. In the past I and others supporting the war have noted the relative paucity of casualties when compared to other U.S. conflicts. But that doesn't lessen the grief and pain that the families of these kids feel when their sons or daughters are killed. I just wanted to find a way of acknowledging the individuality of the people behind the fatality numbers you read about in the newspapers.

[shrugs]

Originally posted by Joe Christmas
It also seems like you think those of us that support it aren't very intelligent and perhaps even immoral.

Y'all just got some serious blinders on. But I guess you're proud to be an American!