Goody, do you agree?

[Gordon B]

In 1998, John Kerry took on the teachers' unions. In twin speeches in Washington and Massachusetts, he described school systems that are "imploding upon themselves," beset with "bloated bureaucracy" and "stagnant administration." He said we had to "end tenure as we know it" so incompetent teachers could be fired more easily.

"Those going into teaching have the lowest SAT and ACT scores of any profession in the United States," he observed. The teacher certification process, he concluded, is "an absurd anomaly" that creates a "convoluted monopolistic structure." He suggested that every school should be turned into a charter school so parents would have more choice.

Source: NY Times 1/26/04

[GoodSpeak]

With which part?

[john williams]

...he described school systems that are "imploding upon themselves," beset with "bloated bureaucracy" and "stagnant administration." He said we had to "end tenure as we know it" so incompetent teachers could be fired more easily.

The old save a few bucks in the short term but fuck education up the arse in the long term speech.

[moneyp]

I wonder if Kerry actually has a plan to make teaching a more valued profession by raising salaries. Or does he believe the people waiting to take over these jobs are that much better than the people already in there?

[GoodSpeak]

Originally posted by mone peterson
the people waiting to take over these jobs are that much better than the people already in there

Come again?

[moneyp]

Read it again, Goody.

[GoodSpeak]

I did, I have...several times.

Are you suggesting there are these thousands of people just dying to get into the classroom and be a teacher? Then I guess I'd better start worrying, huh.

When did this happen?


And you may want to call my school district and let them know where they are all hiding...we're having one hell of a time finding staff to fill vacancies.





Thanks in advance, Mone ;-)

[moneyp]

Originally posted by GoodSpeak
I did, I have...several times.

Are you suggesting there are these thousands of people just dying to get into the classroom and be a teacher?

When did this happen?


And you may want to call my school district and let them know where they are all hiding.

Not in Visalia, I'm guessing. The Los Angeles USD (and surrounding environs) has a plethora of substitute teachers locked out of full-time gigs.

But my point is, the quality of the profession isn't going to improve when it pays like a second-class occupation.

[GoodSpeak]

Originally posted by mone peterson
Not in Visalia, I'm guessing. The Los Angeles USD (and surrounding environs) has a plethora of substitute teachers locked out of full-time gigs.

But my point is, the quality of the profession isn't going to improve when it pays like a second-class occupation.

Good point.

But my guess is the private schools won't do much better...they pay $5-10,000 dollars less on average per year than the public school systems do.


BTW, those substitutes teachers, current budget lay-offs notwithstanding, tend be only subs for a very good reason...trust me on this one. Besides, LA [and SF area] have a problem finding qualified folks who are willing to fore go ever buying a house just to teach. Not so in the San Joaquin Valley where $250,000 bucks can buy you a lot of house.

There just plain aren't enough teachers or people willing to do the job.

But my point is, the quality of the profession isn't going to improve when it pays like a second-class occupation.

Outstanding point, Mone.

Why is it that we look upon the police and school teachers as being two of our most needed and important servants, yet they get diddly fucking squat for pay?

[crawjo]

To be fair, though, teachers tend to get much more vacation time than the average worker.

[Cem]

Another fringe benefit: The majority of them drop dead within 5 years of retirement, iirc.

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

My wife, both parents, and my sister and her husband are public school teachers, and the amount of extra time a conscientious teacher puts in correcting papers, dealing with parents, making lesson plans, incorporating new projects, etc. is astonishing, and makes the extra vacation time seem piddling. No, not all teachers go the extra mile, but I know a lot of teachers and MOST of them do, most of them knock themselves out for the kids, for not much money and almost no appreciation. I get more strokes at one dance than most teachers do all year -- it's insane!

Goodie's point that private school teachers make less than public school teachers is true, and they tend to be younger teachers on waiting lists to get into public schools.

Our district here in Healdsburg has gone so upscale in recent years that families with kids are starting to get priced out, and the district laid off 20 teachers last year. Which teachers? The young, dynamic ones, the ones that would have make outstanding teachers for decades to come. Other districts in similar situations have bribed teachers nearing retirement with extra benefits or attractive severance packages, but we couldn't do that here. So tenure worked against us here. The problem is that without it a district looking to economize might lay off the best, high seniority/salary teachers to hire entry level teachers. A tenure contingent on an ongoing quality evaluation seems the right way to go.

Kerry's second paragraph seems way off the mark. I'd like to see what has to support that SAT accusation. And although educational administrative beauracracies ARE bloated, charter schools have already proven to be an even less effective organizing method.

[Ron Thorne]

Originally posted by crawjo
To be fair, though, teachers tend to get much more vacation time than the average worker.

Wow, where have I heard that before?

Sorry, but that's not fair or well-informed, let alone a statement which would lead to a solution to the many inequities American teachers face today.

[crawjo]

Originally posted by Ron Thorne
Wow, where have I heard that before?

Sorry, but that's not fair or well-informed, let alone a statement which would lead to a solution to the many inequities American teachers face today.

Not fair? It's a fact. Teachers get more vacation time than the average worker. Not well-informed? How? Do you have evidence to the contrary? All I was saying is that when we talk about the salaries that teachers make, we need to take it into consideration.

A good question for everyone though would be, how much money should teachers be making a year? Who is going to pay for that? The taxpayer, of course. Do you want those tax dollars to be funneled through the federal government or through higher property taxes? It's all well and good to talk about how teachers should make more. Fine. But the money has to come from somewhere. Rather than hearing the usual platitudes about teachers needing more pay, I'd like to hear suggestions as to how to actually implement higher salaries for them. When I worked as a beat reporter in New Jersey, I had to cover a lot of different school boards. Two things about them: 1.) The school boards were heavily-politicized, believe it or not and 2.) Any attempt to significantly upgrade the school through taxes was met by harsh resistance from the voters, primarily elderly voters who didn't feel they could afford it and didn't feel the schools really needed to pay the teachers more, or feel that the students needed a new gym, new library, etc. You'd interview them and they would all talk about how back in their day they didn't have jack shit when they went to school and it was just fine. So somebody tell me where the money is going to come from so teachers can make more.

[jesus marion joseph]

To further sdc steve's post, I know several teachers who not only put in the extra effort, but actually pay money out of their own pockets for supplies that their schools are no longer willing (or able) to pay for.

[Cem]

Originally posted by crawjo
So somebody tell me where the money is going to come from so teachers can make more.

That 60's slogan comes to mind: "It'll be a great day when the schools get all the money they need and the air force has to hold a bake sale to buy a bomber".

[stonemonkts]

Originally posted by crawjo
So somebody tell me where the money is going to come from so teachers can make more.

A combination of local and federal subsidies, no? That way poorer communities wouldn't get the short end of the stick, and a general increase in pay AND in standards for meriting the pay should be implemented. Teachers, veterans, cops, firefighters, emergency workers, etc should all be better compensated, in my opinion. I'm willing to chip in, and to those who aren't, tough shit. They don't have a direct say in terms of where there tax dollars go anyway, that's why we elect people.

[Gary Sisco]

Those who work for the public, in a rational world, would understand that by deciding to do so, they will have to live within the public's means of paying them. If they don't like their pay, like anyone else in the world, they can look for a different job.

I'm tired of that who gets paid what argument. Teacher salaries and benefits here increase every year at several times anyone's cost of living increases, and they have a 180 day working year, to boot, without a single entire month of five day weeks even during the school year. That's more than almost anyone who pays them with their taxes can say. And yet it's bitch bitch bitch.

You know what? Fucking tough is my reply. No one drafted you. You don't like it, quit, like anyone else in this society.

I haven't seen any evidence at all that shows that the more teachers (or anyone else) are paid, the better the performance, for that reason alone. If anything, I've seen all the evidence I need of the opposite. And their vociferous and nearly across the board defense of the status quo makes my point as far as I'm concerned.

Fact is, private school teachers tend to get paid *less* than public school teachers.

It would be one thing if all of that money, trillions nationwide, created an educated population that's able to function responsibly as citizens in a democratic society -- or even read at what used to be considered a literate level. But it doesn't. And won't, until there are some hugely radical changes in the system itself, including doing away with this tenure business for people who clearly are incompetent and shouldn't be allowed to inflict their incompetence on young minds.

No matter who you are, or what your occupation, there will always be someone else who gets paid more. That's not an argument. And bringing up the incomes of lawyers, doctors, and such as a comparison is totally irrelevant because very few of them get paid en toto *by the working public through taxation.*

In my experience, if you call a teacher's or teacher's union's bluff, and just say, So move somewhere where teachers get paid more, or find some other job that pays more, they shut up pretty quickly, at least on that point. And why they should be singled out as a section of the population where raises based on merit cannot be, is a question for which I have no answer. Like cops, lawyers, doctors, they just cover the asses of the ones that have to go, and even pretend there aren't any.

But these things are going to be changing in the near future, guaranteed, so people might as well get used to it. The people who pay the taxes are really getting sick of the status quo.

It's a strange idea in this society, I know, but there are actually problems that won't be solved by merely spending more money. This is one of them.

[stonemonkts]

Originally posted by Gary Sisco
It's a strange idea in this society, I know, but there are actually problems that won't be solved by merely spending more money. This is one of them.

That's precisely why I brought merit standards into my post.

Teachers aside, don't you (of all people) think veterans should be better compensated upon their return? I sure do.

[crawjo]

Originally posted by stonemonkts
A combination of local and federal subsidies, no? That way poorer communities wouldn't get the short end of the stick, and a general increase in pay AND in standards for meriting the pay should be implemented. Teachers, veterans, cops, firefighters, emergency workers, etc should all be better compensated, in my opinion. I'm willing to chip in, and to those who aren't, tough shit. They don't have a direct say in terms of where there tax dollars go anyway, that's why we elect people.

In New Jersey, they do have a direct say. The school budget got voted on every year, by everyone in the community. And most years, it didn't pass, so then the school would have to find places to trim up the budget. It was a yearly struggle for them.

As for a combination of local and federal subsidies, that's pretty much what we have now, isn't it? And how is that system working? When you combine the local taxes with the state and federal education budgets, we're already spending a lot of money on our educational system. Are we getting the return that we should be getting for our investment? Or do people think there isn't enough investment?

And I also have to say that I understand where Gary is coming from. Teachers have much more vacation time. I know that many of them put in extra hours, but not all of them do, and anyway, how is that different from any other profession? Also, I question how much money they should be making. The amount of education required to become a teacher isn't that impressive. My wife has a masters in social work, and a masters in public administration, and she makes about the same money as your standard teacher, except instead of dealing with bratty kids all day, she gets to deal with mentally-disturbed, sometimes psychotic, patients. Oh, and she doesn't get summers off. Shouldn't social workers make more money then, too?

[stonemonkts]

My impression of our general populace is there's a tremendous amount of ignorance and cultural stupidity out there. I wonder why that is, perhaps it is more complicated than a simple connection to the quality (or lack thereof) of education. I don't know. Maybe I'm a snob and people are smart enough as they are in this country, but somehow I doubt it.

This country is a breeding ground for crass commercialism supported by sheepish consumers.

Or not. WTFDIK?

[crawjo]

Originally posted by stonemonkts
My impression of our general populace is there's a tremendous amount of ignorance and cultural stupidity out there. I wonder why that is, perhaps it is more complicated than a simple connection to the quality (or lack thereof) of education. I don't know. Maybe I'm a snob and people are smart enough as they are in this country, but somehow I doubt it.

This country is a breeding ground for crass commercialism supported by sheepish consumers.

Or not. WTFDIK?

No, I think you have it right. I agree that there is a tremendous amount of ignorance and stupidity out there. I think it has less to do with the education they receive in schools (though that is part of it...I do think that we've seen a decline in academic standards), and more to do with the lowest common denominator appeal of our popular culture.

Reality tv disproves the notion that people are smart enough as they are in this country, in my opinion. But don't be afraid of being a snob. It's better than being an ignoramus.

[GoodSpeak]

Originally posted by crawjo
To be fair, though, teachers tend to get much more vacation time than the average worker.

Uh...this would be UNPAID time, Crawjo.

Besides, we teachers don't set the schedule...I further wonder how many of you all would stand still for no vaction time. So much for that summer job to help pay for car insurance and say good-bye to family vacations and summer camps. You think we want to get paid only 10-11 months out of every year? Work me all year...I could use the extra pay. But what about the kids and their families? Do they count at all? Maybe there are two sides to every issue.

We don't have a paid vacation, a company car, an expense account, company credit card, an hour for lunch, coffee breaks, or any of the so-called fringe benefits many on this BBS have.

We do have medical and dental care, though, [which I am grateful for] but that's being slowly taken away from us as well.




Sorry.


I'm just being unobjective and illogical...

[GoodSpeak]

Originally posted by crawjo
No, I think you have it right. I agree that there is a tremendous amount of ignorance and stupidity out there. I think it has less to do with the education they receive in schools (though that is part of it...I do think that we've seen a decline in academic standards), and more to do with the lowest common denominator appeal of our popular culture.

Reality tv disproves the notion that people are smart enough as they are in this country, in my opinion. But don't be afraid of being a snob. It's better than being an ignoramus.

Guys,

We don't raise the kids, OK?

If there were some parental guidance or discipline regarding playtime, TV watching, video games and computer time, etc. etc. ad nauseum...perhaps we could do more.


It never ceases to amaze me how the only solution is to simply blame the schools for the whole of society's ills.




No wonder nobody wants this job...

[crawjo]

Originally posted by GoodSpeak
Uh...this would be UNPAID time, Crawjo.

We don't have a paid vacation, a company car, an expense account, company credit card, an hour for lunch, coffee breaks, or any of the so-called fringe benefits many on this BBS have.

We do have medical and dental care, though, [which I am greatful for] but that's being slowly taken away from us as well.

All I'm saying is that when you take into account a teacher's annual salary, you have to remember that for much of the year they aren't teaching.

I don't know anyone with a company car or an expense account. I do know that the teacher's lounge in my school was always filled with smoke, and they were definitely brewing some coffee in there, too.

[Enforcer]

Originally posted by crawjo
and they were definitely brewing some coffee in there, too.

Mmm... coffee... [best Homer Simpson impression]

Especially weak in his contributions today,
Larry

[GoodSpeak]

Originally posted by crawjo
All I'm saying is that when you take into account a teacher's annual salary, you have to remember that for much of the year they aren't teaching.

I don't know anyone with a company car or an expense account. I do know that the teacher's lounge in my school was always filled with smoke, and they were definitely brewing some coffee in there, too.

I'm guessing you don't teach.

Crawjo, when I'm not teaching I am preparing for the next year by taking classes, working on testing and assessments required by the state, going to seminars, doing research and lesson planning. And all of it is on my off-time. Gratis.

IF I have time, I might actually take a week off for a family vacation [sorry...it was a moment of weakness].


Lounges filled with smoke? We've had no smoking laws for ten years now. Where does this occur? And is drinking coffee a problem? I said we have no coffee break. Dude, we might even eat lunch...just like you.

C'mon now...I think we're deserving of some professional discretion, don't you?

[GoodSpeak]

In 1998, John Kerry took on the teachers' unions. In twin speeches in Washington and Massachusetts, he described school systems that are "imploding upon themselves," beset with "bloated bureaucracy" and "stagnant administration." He said we had to "end tenure as we know it" so incompetent teachers could be fired more easily.

I would agree with this statement...we, in fact, need a better way to remove incompetents from the classroom and the administration. However, if we abolish tenure all together, get ready for pure job place pandemonium in the form of political back-stabbing and parental get-back.

If it comes down to this, I can tell you teachers will simply give the grades the parents want just to keep their jobs.

By way of an example: This year I have 160+/- students. Each of them have two parents...in many cases, three or four given the divorce rate and re-married spouses. Now, this means I would have, conservatively, 350 "bosses." Add to this the bosses I already have [four VPs, a Principal, six District Learning Directors, four Assistant Superintendents, a seven member Local School Board, a School District Superintendent, County Dept. of Education, Teacher Credentialing, the State Board of Education and the State Superintendent] and you have an impossible no-win situation: How do I keep all these people 100% happy, 100% of the time? THIS is the reason we have tenure. Otherwise, the turn-over rate would be astoundingly ridiculous.

Once again, we see there are two sides to every issue.