Death Penalty & Abortion

[Captain Hate]

With the spirited debate going on about the death penalty on the other thread, I'm interested in finding out how posters here line up on these. I've read in some media publications that people usually line up Pro death penalty/anti abortion & Anti death penalty/pro abortion. I'm pro death penalty and pro abortion, although I don't feel very strongly about either.

[Salvador Dali Lama]

I frankly haven't made up my mind about either one.

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

I voted for both (with a lot of caveats, of course), but I feel obligated to note that "pro-abortion" is typically an anti-abortionist phrase. People are "pro-choice" rather than pro-abortion.

[Nick]

The term "pro abortion" reminds me of that Simpsons episode where Kang and Kodos impersonate Clinton and Dole during the 96 campaign and one of them says something about "abortions for all" during a speech. Anyway, I'd say I'm strongly pro-choice and not quite so stronly against capital punishment.

[Uli]

I am a strong supporter of human rights. Therefore I voted against death penalty and pro abortion (in the first 3 months).

[Captain Hate]

Originally posted by Squaredancecalling Steve
I voted for both (with a lot of caveats, of course), but I feel obligated to note that "pro-abortion" is typically an anti-abortionist phrase. People are "pro-choice" rather than pro-abortion.

I've never understood the semantic antics on that; and I'm pro whatever they want to call it (with a boatload of caveats also). imo, pro-choice sounds so vague and unspecific; it's like it's avoiding the issue.

[Enforcer]

Originally posted by Captain Hate
I've never understood the semantic antics on that; and I'm pro whatever they want to call it (with a boatload of caveats also). imo, pro-choice sounds so vague and unspecific; it's like it's avoiding the issue.

I hate bowing to semantics too, Cap, but I think there's a reasonable defense of the term. I know quite a few people who are offended and disgusted by the thought of abortion, but who don't believe they should be responsible for taking the choice away form someone else. They probably wouldn't want to be called "pro abortion," but "pro choice" kind of fits.

Larry

[Brian Olewnick]

I'm with Uli!

[frankiepop]

i'm pro privacy....so i support abortion.


just kill everybody?? is that for muslims...? go ahead call me a bigot. they dont seem to mind.

im with lama actually on the death penalty

[crawjo]

Well, it looks like I'm the first one to vote "anti" on both. I've made my views on both pretty well known, but I have a very hard time seeing abortion as a "privacy issue." To me, the right to privacy does not exceed the right to life, and I have yet to hear anyone come up with a rational justification for denying that the fetus is in fact a human life. People talk about it as having the "possibility" of life, as if at the end of nine months a fax machine might come out instead of a baby. And I also know that a common argument is that the fetus is entirely dependent on the mother for survival, but the same is true for the baby. If you leave a newborn alone, the newborn will die. To my way of thinking, becoming pregnant means you have a responsibility for that baby, from the moment of its conception onwards. And that goes for both the mother and the father. I recognize that women are often abandoned and mistreated, and that this leads them to get an abortion. But to my mind, the right of a human being to live supercedes every other right involved.

[Uli]

Originally posted by crawjo
I have yet to hear anyone come up with a rational justification for denying that the fetus is in fact a human life.

Maybe I can point you in the direction of scientific medical literature.

[crawjo]

Originally posted by Uli
Maybe I can point you in the direction of scientific medical literature.

No, because science can't answer the question.

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

Originally posted by Brian Olewnick
I'm with Uli!

Savor the moment.

[Captain Hate]

Originally posted by Brian Olewnick
I'm with Uli!

I thought I heard "Escalator Over the Hill" in the background!

[walto]

I'm with SDL, and I've been thinking about this stuff on and off for many years. I'm always impressed with how sure people are about such difficult issues. Got the various rights all weighed out, know when personhood inheres in a fetus, understand the nature of punishment and everything. Gotta love that, especially in teenagers!

Cap, ya gotta put "Don't Know/Refused" as a choice like Gallup!

[Jazzzoline]

Originally posted by crawjo
Well, it looks like I'm the first one to vote "anti" on both. I've made my views on both pretty well known, but I have a very hard time seeing abortion as a "privacy issue." To me, the right to privacy does not exceed the right to life, and I have yet to hear anyone come up with a rational justification for denying that the fetus is in fact a human life. People talk about it as having the "possibility" of life, as if at the end of nine months a fax machine might come out instead of a baby. And I also know that a common argument is that the fetus is entirely dependent on the mother for survival, but the same is true for the baby. If you leave a newborn alone, the newborn will die. To my way of thinking, becoming pregnant means you have a responsibility for that baby, from the moment of its conception onwards. And that goes for both the mother and the father. I recognize that women are often abandoned and mistreated, and that this leads them to get an abortion. But to my mind, the right of a human being to live supercedes every other right involved.

Hmm.. mother and father..
What about a rape?
What about a prositute being pregnant?
Those situations exist, sadly..

I'm anti-death penalty and pro choice. In the last case, women should have the right to choose.

[crawjo]

Originally posted by walto
I'm with SDL, and I've been thinking about this stuff on and off for many years. I'm always impressed with how sure people are about such difficult issues. Got the various rights all weighed out, know when personhood inheres in a fetus, understand the nature of punishment and everything. Gotta love that, especially in teenagers!

Cap, ya gotta put "Don't Know/Refused" as a choice like Gallup!

Well, you know, somebody has to figure all these issues out, otherwise, everybody would be a fence-straddler and nothing would ever get figured out. It's by taking a stance and articulating it that real dialogue and debate occurs.

[GA Russell]

I'm anti both.

The one situtation I could see for the death penalty is when the guy is in jail and still is able to kill or order a killing. In that case, the safety of others justifies the death penalty, for lack of other options.

Abortion is the only $300 million dollar a year enterprise I know of where nobody wants to admit he's for it.

[Captain Hate]

Originally posted by Larry Nagel
I hate bowing to semantics too, Cap, but I think there's a reasonable defense of the term. I know quite a few people who are offended and disgusted by the thought of abortion, but who don't believe they should be responsible for taking the choice away form someone else. They probably wouldn't want to be called "pro abortion," but "pro choice" kind of fits.

Larry

Congratulations, Larry; you're the first person to ever state that in a coherent fashion to me. I still don't totally agree with it but I understand where the usage is coming from and don't totally disagree with it either.

Old dog open to new tricks,
CH

[Captain Hate]

Originally posted by walto
I'm with SDL, and I've been thinking about this stuff on and off for many years. I'm always impressed with how sure people are about such difficult issues. Got the various rights all weighed out, know when personhood inheres in a fetus, understand the nature of punishment and everything. Gotta love that, especially in teenagers!

Cap, ya gotta put "Don't Know/Refused" as a choice like Gallup!

I thought about doing that (this is the first poll I've ever done so you gotta cut me some slack) but I wouldn't have been able to resist putting "I'm a toolbox that lets other people think for me"

I do totally agree with your first paragraph!! That's one of my major caveats.

[moneyp]

Originally posted by GA Russell
Abortion is the only $300 million dollar a year enterprise I know of where nobody wants to admit he's for it.

Wait, aren't people here admitting to being for it? Hell, I'll admit to being for it! Go abortion!

[Gordon B]

Originally posted by Brian Olewnick
I'm with Uli!

Uli said he' s pro legalized abortion (neutral wording) in the first three months. You have stated numerous times that you are in favor of legalized abortion until birth.

My view is close to Uli's. I'm pro abortion until the fetus is viable outside the womb. That's longer than three months from conception so I guess I'm more liberal than Uli on this issue.

I'm also a moderate on the death penalty. I support it but only for murder convictions supported by DNA evidence.

I don't like "pro-chocie" or "pro-life." How many people consider themselves "anti-choice" or "anti-life?"

[Dr Dave]

Originally posted by crawjo
No, because science can't answer the question.

Nonsense. Science hasn't given you the answer you want to hear, so you don't want to hear about the science. I don't blame you, really. We used to talk about man playing God. Now we're really doing it--and this genie won't go back in the bottle. I know I feel like I have a lot of catching up to do on thinking about what constitutes ethical behavior, and I'll bet I'm not alone. Science is forcing us to face issues we never wanted to face.

Every once in a while I run into a vocal anti-abortionist. I remember it happening to me on the job: I had a Canadian client who was one serious Old Testament type. I remember him asking me whether I want to live in a world where a woman can get "an abortion on demand." The thing is, I have never in my life met a woman who wanted to have an abortion. I just can't square that circle.

Many, but not all, of the anti-abortion people I've met are also a little unsettling on the subject of sex. I remember one woman, a cashier at my local liquor store, whose unmarried sister had become pregnant as the result of casual sex. One of her co-workers asked what she'd do about the pregnancy. The cashier looked at me and said, "You want to play, you got to pay." In short, the child would come into the world as a punishment for the mother's having had casual sex. Would you want to grow up in a home where your mother saw you as a penalty for having had sex?

Anyway, this whole business has nothing to do with women and everything to do with men wanting to keep some form of control over them.

I'm against the death penalty. I don't think the State should claim such a right for itself, especially when the State expressly prohibits murder.

[Brian Olewnick]

Originally posted by Gordon B
Uli said he' s pro legalized abortion (neutral wording) in the first three months. You have stated numerous times that you are in favor of legalized abortion until birth.

Oh c'mon. How often do I get to express such unity with my cuz?

[GoodSpeak]

I oppose the death penalty AND wholesale abortion.

The only reason an abortion should be performed is in the case of incest, rape and in the age and life of the mother.


Put THAT in your conservative pipe and smoke it.






















HA!

[vibes]

I found the "just kill everybody" option particularly appealing.

[crawjo]

Originally posted by Dr Dave
Nonsense. Science hasn't given you the answer you want to hear, so you don't want to hear about the science. I don't blame you, really. We used to talk about man playing God. Now we're really doing it--and this genie won't go back in the bottle. I know I feel like I have a lot of catching up to do on thinking about what constitutes ethical behavior, and I'll bet I'm not alone. Science is forcing us to face issues we never wanted to face.

Every once in a while I run into a vocal anti-abortionist. I remember it happening to me on the job: I had a Canadian client who was one serious Old Testament type. I remember him asking me whether I want to live in a world where a woman can get "an abortion on demand." The thing is, I have never in my life met a woman who wanted to have an abortion. I just can't square that circle.

Many, but not all, of the anti-abortion people I've met are also a little unsettling on the subject of sex. I remember one woman, a cashier at my local liquor store, whose unmarried sister had become pregnant as the result of casual sex. One of her co-workers asked what she'd do about the pregnancy. The cashier looked at me and said, "You want to play, you got to pay." In short, the child would come into the world as a punishment for the mother's having had casual sex. Would you want to grow up in a home where your mother saw you as a penalty for having had sex?

Anyway, this whole business has nothing to do with women and everything to do with men wanting to keep some form of control over them.

I'm against the death penalty. I don't think the State should claim such a right for itself, especially when the State expressly prohibits murder.

Science can only explain the mechanics of life: at what point different parts of the body form and begin to function, etc. It cannot explain when "life" begins, because that is a philosophical question. But is there any question that the scientific process of life begins with the fertilization of the egg?

[crawjo]

Originally posted by mone peterson
Wait, aren't people here admitting to being for it? Hell, I'll admit to being for it! Go abortion!

So you are "pro abortion" then? When an abortion happens, that makes you feel good?

[Vince Kargatis]

Originally posted by crawjo
Science can only explain the mechanics of life: at what point different parts of the body form and begin to function, etc. It cannot explain when "life" begins, because that is a philosophical question. But is there any question that the scientific process of life begins with the fertilization of the egg?

Here the confusion engendered by your conflation of the term "life" and the concept of rights-bearing status (referred by many [e.g., walto above] as "personhood") is clearly shown. I vote for keeping the term "life" a biological one, a realm where to me it clearly belongs, and keeping the rights argument separate. I think all would agree that biological "life" is a (trivially) necessary, but not sufficient criterion for rights-ascription. So please, let's drop its use in a rights argument at all. No one is talking about pebbles (non-life) or fleas (life) here. I would be very, very happy to never see the term "life" used in the abortion argument ever again. I've only ever seen it cloud arguments and conclusions on this subject.

Earlier you express having a hard time accepting that people deny fetuses a "right to life", because it's clearly a human life. That's due to the confusion above. Indeed, it clearly is a human life, no denying that unless you want to deny accepted biological definitions. However, people clearly find that fact's relevance to rights arguable. Ask yourself why you (I expect) are not arguing for the "right to life" for the very alive amoeba or flea - it's because life's not the distinguishing factor.

My positions on the two issues of the poll are completely unrelated. I oppose the death penalty because my tolerance of killing innocents by the State in the name of justice is zero. Since no justice system could ever be perfect, I can think of no way I could accept a systemic death penalty.

Regarding abortion, there's only one ethical variable for me - when the fetus is ascribed the right against murder. I personally ascribe that right when the capacity for self-awareness is reached. When is that point? No one knows atm. But realistically, it's probably somewhere in the 2nd trimester. Note that "women's rights" do not appear in my equation. Women's rights (and men's) are well established and equal in my view, and are not variables in this issue. One can do whatever they want as long as they don't violate others' ascribed rights. ...If it's not clear, I'm pro-abortion-rights up to the age of achieving the capacity for self-awareness. (If pressed, I can explain my preference for that vs. actual self-awareness.)

[lazarus]

I´m with Uli and Brian!!!!!!!!!