Free Jazz or Ascension

[crawjo]

These two albums seem to get compared to each other quite often. Which do you prefer? I'll take Free Jazz, myself, but I'm interested to know other people's thoughts.

[Derek Taylor]

I revisit ASCENSION (both versions) more often, but if forced to choose it’d probably be a stalemate. Why do you prefer FREE JAZZ?

[Root Doctor]

I like them both, but prefer Ascension over Free Jazz.

[Vince Kargatis]

I find ASCENSION a significantly greater work. FREE JAZZ has some good soloing, but as a work, it's pretty much a long string of solos for an at-the-time novel instrumentation/grouping. Ornette use a similar format much more effectively for the Science Fiction/Broken Shadows large-group sessions, imo. I certainly place FJ at the bottom of the Atlantic sessions.

[crawjo]

Originally posted by Derek Taylor
I revisit ASCENSION (both versions) more often, but if forced to choose it’d probably be a stalemate. Why do you prefer FREE JAZZ?

I like Ascension, but I find its format to be rather dull. Some of the playing, particularly Coltrane's, is quite inspired, however. Overall, I just find Free Jazz to be a more dynamic recording. I recognize that's not a very good explanation--I probably need to listen to Ascension again to formulate my thoughts more coherently.

[Pete C]

Originally posted by Derek Taylor
Why do you prefer FREE JAZZ?

I personally prefer it because it's a lot more fun (the bass and drum sections are a blast). For me, Ascension is too ponderous for more than the occasional visit.

[Derek Taylor]

Thanks for the replies, crawjo & Pete. I think what draws me more often to ASCENSION is its sheer grandiosity. I agree with Pete that it can be ponderous in places and think it can also be viewed as a long string of solos, held together by ensemble glue that isn’t always all that tenacious. But I love the diversity of the players in attendance. On the other hand it’s fun to hear Freddie Hubbard wrestle with the context of FREE JAZZ. To my ears, there are points where he’s audibly & admirably adjusting to the setting. Plus the bass team of Charlie Haden & Scott LaFaro and drum tandem of Billy Higgins & Ed Blackwell- HUGE! Yup, I just can’t pick one over the other.

[walto]

Ascension--particularly because of Archie Shepp and Marion Brown.

There is nothing that I like on Free Jazz more than the first part of Ascension through Coltrane's solo. As far as consistent satisfaction, I would take Free Jazz.

There are many works by both artists that I like more than either.

[Frisco]

I could never choose one over the other. I could listen to either one at any time or any place. I could use a certain word for Ascension but don't want Pete to reach for his gun. It does, however, do wonderful things for my spirit. So does Free Jazz though in a little bit different way. And, of course, you have to look at Free Jazz in the sense of being a "groundbreaker".

[Bill Barton]

Funny, I don't tend to think of them as similar at all.

And I certainly don't think of one as *greater* than the other.

Walter has a point about Archie Shepp and Marion Brown though...

[Pete C]

Originally posted by Bill Barton
Funny, I don't tend to think of them as similar at all.

They're very different in sound and spirit, but they're often mentioned in the same breath as pioneering extended ensemble free jazz recordings, and Ascension has always been thought of as a response to Free Jazz.

[Capt. W./TX.]

I have both-but I can't say that either one ever won me over, musically.

I've always been drawn to and supportive of the concept of 'free-jazz'. Admittedly, both "Free Jazz" and "Ascension" are landmark works in both artists' careers; they also both got a lot of ink in the jazz press-good & bad-when they came out. Somebody had to take the first step-although Coleman & Coltrane weren't actually the first (see below).

Musically, I've long believed both works have since been overshadowed many times over-not only by Coleman & Coltrane themselves, but by others working in the same vein (i.e. totaly free improvisation).

I liked 'Trane's "Sun Ship" & "Interstellar Space" much better than "Ascension". Also, Coleman's "Ornette!". "Ornette On Tenor", "Science Fiction" & "Sound Museum" were, IMO, all superior musically to "Free Jazz".
Admittedly, all of these works used some kind of theme or melody as a jumping-off point. But that method worked better for both men, musically, than totally free improvisation.

Having said that, however, one work recorded in the 60's I liked a lot (in a similar vein to "Free Jazz' & "Ascension") was Steve Lacy's "The Forest & The Zoo" (on ESP-Disk).

Another of recent vintage that worked very well is trumpeter Dave Ballou's "On This Day" (on SteepleChase); it was totally improvised from the git-go. And it came off beautifully. Still another CD full of often brilliant totally free improvisation is Keith Jarrett's "Inside Out", with Gary Peacock & Jack DeJohnette (ECM, 2001).

Two other examples of exceptional results playing totally 'free' were "Free Too Long" (Clare Fischer, Gary Peacock & Gene Stone on the album "First Time Out", 1962) and "Out Of The Cage" (on vibist Mike Maneri's 1995 CD "An American Diary"; the other players were Joe Lovano, Eddie Gomez & Peter Erskine).

Lest we forget: three classic early 'free-jazz' performances: Lennie Tristano's "Intuition" and "Digression" (1949) and the Shorty Rogers/Jimmy Giuffre/Shelly Manne performance titled "Abstraction" (1954). All of these were totally spontaneous group improvisations.

Also: the great Jimmy Giuffre trio stuff with Paul Bley and Steve Swallow (1961-originally on Verve; reissued on ECM). With this trio, the pieces had a melodic or motific starting point, but (as with Coleman & Coltrane) good to great music resulted by using pre-determined melody as the basis.

[stonemonkts]

Originally posted by Capt. W./TX.
Also: the great Jimmy Giuffre trio stuff with Paul Bley and Steve Swallow (1961-originally on Verve; reissued on ECM). With this trio, the pieces had a melodic or motific starting point, but (as with Coleman & Coltrane) good to great music resulted by using pre-determined melody as the basis.

Excellent post, Capt.

I'd like to add another Giuffre trio to your selections of "free jazz", namely "Free Fall".

As to Ascension and Free Jazz, I picked Ascension. I like both recordings but I feel more engaged by Ascension. I also prefer other late Coltrane recordings, most of which you mentioned.

[Tanager]

Originally posted by stonemonkts
Excellent post, Capt.

I'd like to add another Giuffre trio to your selections of "free jazz", namely "Free Fall".

That's just a flat-out knockout disk, IMHO.

[Frisco]

Capt W., you bring up some excellent (I'm sure, even though I haven't heard them all) dates involving free improvisation. I have a problem with your comparisons though. You're putting Keith Jarrett's, Dave Ballou's, Clare Fischer's and other artists' delvings into free improv alongside Ascension and Free Jazz? You obviously like music that sticks more to a melody and that's fine. But, aside from them all using some degree of free improvisation, I'd say that they have very little or nothing to do with one another.

[walto]

Cap, one other thing that seems to me to distinguish the sessions you've mentioned from "Free Jazz" and "Ascenscion" is ensemble size. I think the reason you may prefer the Guiffre dates is that it's hard to do large group free stuff without getting muddy. And both the Coltrane and Coleman recordings do have their extremely messy moments. I think it's generally harder to make big group stuff completely free and not end up with junk. But there are moments in "Ascenscion" that are just so beautiful! Listen to the two solos I mentioned (particularly the Brown): it just comes out of nowhere, like an oasis in a desert or a hurricane eye. And Coltrane's opening solo is also pretty killer the way it rises out of the ruckus. In the Coleman session too (I no longer have that recording around--my reel tape went bye-bye not too long ago) I recall there being brilliant moments, sometimes made more wonderful by being in that kind of information-overload environment. All that thumping of basses and tom-toms!

Anyhow, they seem to me to satisfy a different kind of itch than, say "Intuition"--which I also love.

[SilentKnowledge]

I prefer Ascension. I believe it is much more freer & louder. That is what I tend to enjoy in free jazz.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by SilentKnowledge

I prefer Ascension. I believe it is much more freer & louder. That is what I tend to enjoy in free jazz.

Do you know this one? I just saw a revisitation (seems like an appropriate word) of it tonight. I'll post some thoughts tomorrow on the Vision Festival thread when I'm rested.

[SilentKnowledge]

No, I am completly unaware of this album. Thank you for meantioning it, I think I'll browse for this one.

I was reading a review for this album as well & claimed that the titled track is the loudest free jazz track ever or close to be. Is it as noisy as Peter Brotzmann's Machine Gun?

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by SilentKnowledge

Is it as noisy as Peter Brotzmann's Machine Gun?

Personally, it's not the kind of music I can really listen to except live, but from memory I'd say it's certainly in the same ballpark. I supose it depends on how loud you turn up the volume.

[SilentKnowledge]

Originally Posted by Pete C

Personally, it's not the kind of music I can really listen to except live, but from memory I'd say it's certainly in the same ballpark. I suppose it depends on how loud you turn up the volume.

LOL. Good point...

Thanks for the info. Now I am intrigued!

[7/4]

I'd say both, but it's like comparing apples and oranges.

[Al in NYC]

The Haden/LaFaro duet and Ornette's own playing on FJ always knocks me out. For awhile I kept the CD just cued up on the bass part and played it whenever I wanted a lil' artistic jump-start.

I dig FreeJazz more. It's just more cohesive to me. And the definitive interplay between the two bands is preferable to my ears rather than the noisy group rambling of Ascension.

Both are very good, and very demanding on the listener. But something about FreeJazz just makes more sense.

[Jason Bivins]

I hesitate to say neither, but I almost never find myself wanting to listen to these two records. Like everyone else, I love the two artists but . . .

Originally Posted by Jason Bivins

I hesitate to say neither, but I almost never find myself wanting to listen to these two records. Like everyone else, I love the two artists but . . .

I also agree with that, Jason.

Neither get spun often in my home.

[Richardo Caerleoni]

THE Trane "Free" Album...There is too much "romance" about Ascention.

And No contest - "Free Jazz" was a waste of two v. good Quartets !

[SilentKnowledge]

Originally Posted by Richardo Caerleoni

THE Trane "Free" Album...There is too much "romance" about Ascention.

And No contest - "Free Jazz" was a waste of two v. good Quartets !

Ahh, a good point you brought there. Meditations along with Interstellar Space if the closest to Free Improv that he has performed.

Originally Posted by crawjo

These two albums seem to get compared to each other quite often. Which do you prefer? I'll take Free Jazz, myself, but I'm interested to know other people's thoughts.

That's like a "choice" of HONK or SQUEAL?