Subwoofers

Kevin Bresnahan · March-3rd-2004, 08:00 AM

#@!% BBS software! I hate when I type up a huge post and when I hit the "Submit New Thread" button, it crashes and I lose everything!

Oh well, here goes... again...

I'm finally approaching the end of my quest to switch my system over to a multi-channel set-up. I started out doing this mostly to be able to hear multi-channel SACD & DVD-Audio but now it looks like home theater will be its primary use.

Subwoofers

Now the thing is, I expected this to be pretty simple. After all, it's just bass, right? Omni-directional. Boom boom. Simple? If I only knew when I started how complicated this was...

I have done more research on this one "simple" component than any other in my audio system. There is just so much to consider. I don't think I'm ever going to be quite sure that my end choice is the best. Front-firing or down-firing? Sealed or ported? Variable or fixed tuning? Large driver? How much power is "good enough"?

My biggest problem is my limited budget. I thought $500 was plenty for this. Well, little did I know that $500 doesn't even scrape the bottom of the line of most of the "big boys". I was surprised at how slim my choices were. One of the highest recommended lines seems to be SVS but they are $$ and monstrous... way too big for my living room.

So, after a massive search, I've come down to the following units. I'll list them in order of preference. I was wondering if anyone had some inputs on my list. BTW, the first 3 on my list are mostly mail-order only (limited distribution).

The list:
1) Adire Audio Rava - $399 + approx $40 shipping
2) (av123.com) Onix Rocket UFW-10 - $599 but goes much cheaper as a 'B' stock (I'll have to watch the web site for this one)
3) Hsu Research STF-2 - $399 (free shipping) or $359 from my local CompUSA if I can get them to honor their web price (which seems to change daily)
4) Velodyne VX-10 - $199 at my local Tweeter (regularly $299)

Pros & cons:
Adire Audio Rava - Supposedly very good for audio. Sealed design is supposed to be "faster" which seems to equate to better musical performance. Biggest driver of the bunch at 12 inches and pretty powerful at 250 Watts. However, it is a big box (18x18x18) and it isn't magnetically shielded. I hope I don't get distortion on my Sony. It's also a newcomer on the scene.
Onix Rocket - Rave reviews on the AVS Forum and supposedly very good for audio. Very small footprint. However, checking around finds some people complaining about grounding issues and there's also a tendency to bottom out. Of course, I'm not too worried about this last thing... Joanne will never let me get it that loud! Only been in business since 2000.
Hsu Research - Supposedly the "best bang for the buck" and better for home theater. The only down-firing sub on my list. Down-firing onto a hardwood floor (my set-up) is supposed to produce bass with "feeling". Of course, that's debated as well. Many claim forward-firing are just as equal to this task. This thing is big (19x14x18) and downfiring might put the magnet even closer to my set (no idea if it's magnetically shielded... sigh... more research).
Velodyne - Good rep and very cheap. Of course "cheap" isn't tops on my priority but it is a plus. I'm not all that happy with Tweeter right now which is why this moved down the list. I was leaning toward a Boston Acoustics model at Tweeter that was a trade-in but the sales manager would only take $75 off of a two-year old trade-in! I might go this route just for the $$ but it would take a lot of convincing.

So, anyone have an opinion on these?

Later,
Kevin

Kevin Bresnahan · March-3rd-2004, 10:50 AM

Well, in doing more research, it turns out that SVS's low-cost sub, the SVS PB1-ISD, is a pretty decent sub. They do have one in 'B' stock for $549 but it's this butt-ugly "Tan Granite". Check this thing out:

Anyway, I am having a tough time posting here on the corner right now so I may not check back for a bit. Hope Lois & Mone get the bugs worked out.

Later,
Kevin

stonemonkts · March-3rd-2004, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kevin Bresnahan
#@!% BBS software! I hate when I type up a huge post and when I hit the "Submit New Thread" button, it crashes and I lose everything!

I hate it too. Now I copy my post to the clipboard (ctr+C) before hitting the preview button. Funny thing is since I started doing that my posts never crash anymore. But I'm prepared to recover the content if and when it happens next.

Tanager · March-3rd-2004, 11:13 AM

Mozilla will keep the content in the submission form if you use the back button.

Tanager · March-3rd-2004, 11:15 AM

Kevin, I have never researched this topic, and it sounds like you've already done a lot of legwork, but maybe this page will help you some?

Goodsound Review Archives for HT Speakers

Kevin Bresnahan · March-4th-2004, 11:54 AM

Well, the decision has been made after I discovered a curveball that severely limited my choices. It turns out that Sony CRT televisions are pretty susceptible to stray magnetic fields. Obviously, these subwoofers have monstrous magnets and the fields will most likely distort my picture because my planned location is a mere 3 feet from the yoke of the Sony. I have to eliminate non-shielded subs for this reason.

The winner: Hsu Research VTF-2

Yeah, I know... the VTF-2 wasn't on my list!

Well, it turns out that the STF-2 is also not magnetically shielded. The VTF-2 is a variable-tuned version of the STF-2 but it is also shielded. It's a bit more money... it lists for $449... but I've put in a request on their waiting list for a B-stock unit which will be about 20 % off ($360). The variable tuning may help too. Apparently, the set-up of these subwoofers isn't as straight-forward as I've always thought and having a tunable model may make it easier.

Later,
Kevin

jazzfiend · March-5th-2004, 05:13 PM

Very happy with my Hsu Research 12va Sub, which I'm using with Magnepan MG3 dipoles.
It's big, downward firing, and designed to be placed right in front of listener (as a coffee table). It's good looking tho, round, with a rich, walnut top. Cost me $1000 about 5 years ago.
It has an outboard 175 watt amp included. It's quite fast, and provides very tight, extended bass, which is seamlessly integrated with my Maggies. Goes down to 20 hz. My crossover point is at 91 hz.

Chris D · March-8th-2004, 01:02 PM

How does the sub work as a coffee table? Does it shake your scotch and soda onto the floor?

Most subs I've observed provide too much bass, but I imagine I've only heard mid- to low-grade units that aren't properly matched. But in general, they sound like the mixes at any rock show of the last who-knows-how-long: too bottom heavy.

Kevin Bresnahan · March-8th-2004, 01:18 PM

Chris, I'm a bit worried about the "rock concert" atmosphere myself. However, all of the articles I've read about a properly set up subwoofer seem to say that it will improve the bass performance. I need this sub to add some punch but it cannot rumble the walls... Joanne would not go for that at all.

A good description of how a good sub can improve music was in the Adire Rava Review. I really wanted to get this sub as all the reviews said it was one of the best for music but this sub will be too close to the Sony. I hope this Hsu sub will do the trick.

All of this so I can hear multi-channel audio... I must be losing it in my old age.

Like you, I cannot imagine using a sub as a coffee table. Using a vibrating electronic device as a stand for liquids? And with kids around? Absolutely no way in h-e-double-hockey-sticks.

Later,
Kevin

jazzfiend · March-9th-2004, 02:56 PM

The Hsu 12va is quite large, and very stable. Regardless of the sub's level setting, the vibrations fail to manifest themselves in any noticeable fashion. Works great with either coffee or scotch & soda.

BTW, the gain is set so high on the outboard amp, that I must keep the level setting quite low.

Mark Kleinhaut · April-8th-2004, 02:48 PM

Hi Kevin, just wondering if you ever gave my CD another spin with your new subwoofer happening. I recall you didn't hear the bass very well before and I'm wondering if your new improved setup changes your perspective?

Kevin Bresnahan · April-8th-2004, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark kleinhaut

Hi Kevin, just wondering if you ever gave my CD another spin with your new subwoofer happening. I recall you didn't hear the bass very well before and I'm wondering if your new improved setup changes your perspective?

Mark, I'm still on HSU's waiting list for a 'B goods' VTF-2. They say I should get notification within 90 days. It might be a good thing that the company doesn't get a lot of 'B goods'.

Later,
Kevin

Mark Kleinhaut · April-8th-2004, 03:38 PM

or.....you could be waiting a loooong time

al j · May-20th-2004, 11:25 PM

Kevin, I'm just wondering what came of your SW decision. This thread might have helped when I bought my sub, but I'm ultimately very happy. Having almost jumped on one of the Hsu mid models, I instead went conservative and bought AV123's Rocket SW-10 which has turned out to be perfect for my room. I imagine this thing could easily handle another 5-10 square feet and still disperse nicely. The sub is set against two PSB satellites in the front and Tannoys in the rear. No center speaker, no way. A buddy is coming over on Saturday with an SPL meter to dial everything in a little better if we can. To my dismay, AV123 is offering some "open box" subs for 2/3 of the price. Wish I had seen that.

Kevin Bresnahan · May-21st-2004, 08:59 AM

I actually just bought a Hsu Research STF-2. It turns out that STF series is magnetically sheilded after all. I couldn't resist at the price I got... it was $349 at CompUSA and I had a $50 gift certificate. Great sub for $300 out of pocket.

So far, it's been used almost exclusively for movies. Last weekend, I rented the "ultimate subwoofer test disc": Terminator 3. Holy moly! This sub could bring down walls if I wanted it to. I had to turn it down for that movie.

I did spin some music. I got in the newer "Special Editon" of Lynyrd Skynyrd's "One More From the Road" and spun it. Unfortunately, and it might have been the source material, it sounded crappy. I shut it off. I assume I just have to get around to setting it up properly with an SPL meter and all that.

I still have to spin Mark's disc this weekend to see if there is any change there.

Kevin

Kevin Bresnahan · May-31st-2004, 03:16 PM

Well, just to prove that all the research in the world doesn't mean diddly-squat, my Hsu sub croaked this weekend. I went to play it yesterday and it was dead. I pulled the fuse and it was blown. I looked it up on the web site and they recommend replacing the fuse with a slow-blow 5 A fuse (the one supplied is a slow-blow 2.5 A). Today, I put in a 4 A slow-blow and "poof", it blew as well. Dead.

Worst thing is that CompUSA won't even take it back. I called and they're response is, "You'll have to work with the manufacturer".

I asked, "Well, the thing is one month old... don't you have a return policy"?

"14 days," was the response.

I told the guy it would be the last time I make a home audio purchase at his store... like he could care less. Too bad they don't realize what that means. I buy a lot of stuff.

Later,
Kevin

jazzfiend · May-31st-2004, 08:39 PM

Kevin, let us know what happens with Hsu. I found them them to be good & reputable people. I've never had any probs with my Hsu 12va sub.

Kevin Bresnahan · June-2nd-2004, 08:52 AM

Well, so far no response from Hsu on what to do with this blown-up sub. Not a good sign, I might add. I suppose I could go over to their forums and start bitching... that seems to get a quick response over there.

Later,
Kevin

Chris D · June-2nd-2004, 10:29 AM

Bummer, Kevin.

June-8th-2004, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Bresnahan

Well, so far no response from Hsu on what to do with this blown-up sub. Not a good sign, I might add. I suppose I could go over to their forums and start bitching... that seems to get a quick response over there.

Later,
Kevin

Screw the subwoofers Kevin, and get a pair of these (behind the guitars!).

Kevin Bresnahan · June-9th-2004, 08:27 AM

Nah, Conan, I'm thinking about B&W 603 S2's or maybe even Nautilus 805's. I listened to a pair of the 805's at the store the other day and "Wow"! Of course, that's if I can swing the cash. Even at AudiogoN, 805's go for around $1800, which is way more than this humble engineer can afford right now. I'm thinking that my time to get them may be running out. In 3 years my oldest daughter will be in college. I know I won't be spending any "play money" then.

Later,
Kevin

June-9th-2004, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Bresnahan

Nah, Conan, I'm thinking about B&W 603 S2's or maybe even Nautilus 805's. I listened to a pair of the 805's at the store the other day and "Wow"! Of course, that's if I can swing the cash. Even at AudiogoN, 805's go for around $1800, which is way more than this humble engineer can afford right now. I'm thinking that my time to get them may be running out. In 3 years my oldest daughter will be in college. I know I won't be spending any "play money" then.

Later,
Kevin

I see.

I tend to like non-conventional speakers, like ribbons, panels, electro-statics etc. It all started when I bought my first pair of ESS Heils before college.

So, what's Princeton, Brown, Cornell, Harvard........ chargin' these daze? 40 grand a year? Damn, that buys alot of equipment, with money left over to buy a new Honda.

Kevin Bresnahan · June-14th-2004, 01:35 PM

Hsu Research has a new amp on the way. Pretty fast turnaround... I may have the amp back in the sub in 3 weeks! I remember many, many years ago when I had a Technics CD player die and after 4 months, they finally just gave me a new one. I'll take 3 weeks any day.

Later,
Kevin